JBL 4367 first listen

[Bredin]

I’m using 2 abb2 amps now and I’ll use them to power the M2. I’ll also use Audiolense crossovers and time alignment for the M2. So I hope it won’t be that boring.

I think the 900u is a gorgeous amp and sounds great with JBL speakers. I had no complaints. The reason I sold them is because I wanted to move to a fully active setup instead of partially active. If I were you, I’d try the ahb2 first. If you are happy with them, it’s very unlikely you will be happier with any of the other amps you mentioned; certainly your wallet wouldn’t happier.

I meant that it was boring that you took the "safe" way out .
I'm confident that the ahb2 would be good enough sound-wise. The super-low distortion and noise surely makes it interesting, the somewhat "low" damping factor makes me a little skeptical, but it's probably negligible in the real world with all the cables and crossover components.
The thing is that I want a really big, hefty amplifier that's very solidly constructed. I really want that "high-end" feeling, that's the biggest reason why I want to swap my current Rotel RB1582 for something else. And even if it's stupid, but investing a lot of money into something makes if feel special.
Why did you go for Luxman instead of any of the competitors?

[DallasJustice]

I meant that it was boring that you took the "safe" way out .
I'm confident that the ahb2 would be good enough sound-wise. The super-low distortion and noise surely makes it interesting, the somewhat "low" damping factor makes me a little skeptical, but it's probably negligible in the real world with all the cables and crossover components.
The thing is that I want a really big, hefty amplifier that's very solidly constructed. I really want that "high-end" feeling, that's the biggest reason why I want to swap my current Rotel RB1582 for something else. And even if it's stupid, but investing a lot of money into something makes if feel special.
Why did you go for Luxman instead of any of the competitors?

I’ve owned more “high end” amps than the Luxman. I’ve owned Soulution, Krell 900e, Dartzeel and Mola Mola to name a few. I’m no longer a believe in the super expensive amps. I guess I’m sort of reformed. I doubt any of those luxury amps could outperform the benchmark amps. The only one that could be a real competitor would be Soulution 711. IMO, the ahb2 renders amplification a “solved problem” as I read in an honest review about it.

[Bredin]

I’ve owned more “high end” amps than the Luxman. I’ve owned Soulution, Krell 900e, Dartzeel and Mola Mola to name a few. I’m no longer a believe in the super expensive amps. I guess I’m sort of reformed. I doubt any of those luxury amps could outperform the benchmark amps. The only one that could be a real competitor would be Soulution 711. IMO, the ahb2 renders amplification a “solved problem” as I read in an honest review about it.

My question was why you went with the Luxman, there must have been a reason.
I can understand how the abh2 "solved" the amplification problem as its distortion and noise is many times lower than many of the competitors.
It would be very interesting to test the Accuphase P-7300. It from what I can tell offers a more stable power delivery than the u900m, it has only 1dB worse signal/noise than the abh2 and offers >1000 damping factor. I've heard it's $32K in the USA, but "only" $23K here in Europe.

[DallasJustice]

My question was why you went with the Luxman, there must have been a reason.
I can understand how the abh2 "solved" the amplification problem as its distortion and noise is many times lower than many of the competitors.
It would be very interesting to test the Accuphase P-7300. It from what I can tell offers a more stable power delivery than the u900m, it has only 1dB worse signal/noise than the abh2 and offers >1000 damping factor. I've heard it's $32K in the USA, but "only" $23K here in Europe.

I think Accuphase is even more beautiful than Luxman. But the price in US is dumb. I investigated getting an Accuphase amp and the pricing never made sense to me. If you could get that amp for a reasonable price, you’d be set. It would check both of your boxes for performance and aesthetics.

[Fitero]

I'm curious to hear your impressions driving the M2's with the relatively low powered Benchmark amplifiers.

I will be moving my M2's into the apartment once the Salons are gone, and I have been agonizing over amplifier choices...

Apparently, the main engineers involved with the design of the M2 use the Crown DCI amps and consider the Itech and other more expensive amplifiers a waste of money. However, that might be callous engineer pragmatism.

As mentioned above, we often feel better about our gear if we extenuate ourselves and buy the most expensive audio jewelry that we can afford. It must be something to do with our human nature.

[DallasJustice]

I'm curious to hear your impressions driving the M2's with the relatively low powered Benchmark amplifiers.

The AHB2 is rated 100w into 8ohms. My VU meter converted to watts on the Luxman 900u driving the 4367 never went above 30-40 watts. The M2 is 92db and the 4367 is 94db efficiency. I can’t imagine a scenario where the M2 would approach 100w on either channel. In my case, I use even less power because I cross my R/L over to subs.

[Fitero]

I successfully powered my 4367's briefly with a PrimaLuna 36WPC Integrated amp to insane levels.

Every amp that I connected to them offered a different nuance to the sound. I'm just curious what your experience is going to be with the Benchmark amps.

[Ian Mackenzie]

For domestic use.

Remember the M2 horn is padded down 10 dB.

I would have thought the polymer diaphragm in the D2 more forgiving than Be as far a finding the right amplifier.

Pairing up an an amplifier to soft dome or textile transducer is at the other end of the spectrum.

[DallasJustice]

For domestic use.

Remember the M2 horn is padded down 10 dB

yes. But the 4367 uses the same drivers and also pads down the D2 so that it’s at the same level as the midwoofer. I’d bet the pad levels are almost the same.

Of course, I’ll measure using custom pink noise around the crossover region for each driver. I will set the D2’s channel level so that it is the same level as the midwoofer.

[Bredin]

I would have thought the polymer diaphragm in the D2 more forgiving than Be as far a finding the right amplifier.

It's bad practice to make assumptions with audio based on things like materials alone. D2 is of a different technology all together and we have no clues on how rigid the the polymer is either.

I'm curious to hear your impressions driving the M2's with the relatively low powered Benchmark amplifiers.

Apparently, the main engineers involved with the design of the M2 use the Crown DCI amps and consider the Itech and other more expensive amplifiers a waste of money. However, that might be callous engineer pragmatism.

As mentioned above, we often feel better about our gear if we extenuate ourselves and buy the most expensive audio jewelry that we can afford. It must be something to do with our human nature.

100watt on the M2 should be good for 112dB@1meter.
I think that solid state amps that are within certain specs should sound pretty much the same. I think that we'll just see diminishing returns the better the specs get after a certain point. Here in Sweden we have "LTS", or "Sound-technology society" that swears by transparency in certain electronics. They really like the Rotel RB-1590 as far as I can tell, and that might be a good option for the Benchmark as it costs $1200 less(here in Sweden at least), and delivers 465watts @ 8ohms, 841watts @ 4ohms and 1568watts @ 2ohms (I don't know if it's measured with one or two channels).

My Rotel RB-1582 is specified at 200watts @ 8ohms with 3volt input. I have my dacs output limited to 2.12V and I normally play at -30dB to -20dB, after about -10dB it's too loud for comfort. So maybe about 10watt should be enough for me, but it doesn't stop me from considering amplifiers at 600watt

[Ian Mackenzie]

It’s a bad practice to rely on distortion measurement and marketing hype.

Let your ears decide.

My comments was an educated guess given Jbl engineer verbal feedback the D2 M2 wave guide is sweet in the highs. Go figure.

Neither Ti and Be sounds sweet

I have had salesman talk me away from buying the M2 commenting it’s too analytical so who knows.

Listen before you buy
Each to their own

(All salesman and marketing hype are liars)

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think that solid state amps that are within certain specs should sound pretty much the same. I think that we'll just see diminishing returns the better the specs get after a certain point. :

We are all entitled to our opinions.

Your opinion on the above may not resonate with the majority.

A purchaser is entitled to think “yes” based on certain specs they should sound the same.

It’s been a while since l read an amplifier manual or an amplifier advertisement.

Publishing specs like 0.001 %THD and damping factor >1000 was big thing back in the 1970-80’s to win the specs war.

You don’t see that much these days.

The problem was later on it was proven that lowest THD in itself was not a reliable indicator of subjective amplifier performance.

Today that’s still open to debate which is why we have a diverse audio industry.

I tend to read 6Moons reviews rather than Stereophile reviews and test reports these days only because the 6Moons reviews are more enjoyable reading. Don’t we all love men’s jewellery.

That as a topic belongs in another thread where people can bash brands, amplifier topologies and their own experiences.

As long as we all remain friends and no one gets hurt opinions are healthy.

[Fitero]

As in most things; hard engineering facts guide us to the near vicinity, but emotional response narrows things down until a decision is made.

When people have a hard time deciding between the sound difference of one component to the next, I attempt to get them to focus on one facet of the music at a time. This way, I believe it is easier to discern these tiny differences. It's then easy to swap back and forth and identify a favorite. Perhaps I am a fool, but that's how I have done it for years.

I was enthralled with the tonality and impact of the 4367, but wanted to try something else. The Revel Salons do everything well, but have distanced me from the instruments and "excitement of the performance" a bit in comparison, so now I am going to try the M2's.

As with every other speaker I have heard, the connected components will change the sound output of them slightly no doubt. Is it worth the effort to chase unattainable perfection? For me it is. I enjoy experimentation.

A pair of Benchmark amps coupled to a BSS Blu-50 compared to a JBL SDA-4600 amp is a very interesting experiment to me.

[sebackman]

The BBS BLU50 will probably be a much better sounding DSP based upon topology and SW.

Kind regards

//Rob

[hsosdrum]

Apparently, the main engineers involved with the design of the M2 use the Crown DCI amps and consider the Itech and other more expensive amplifiers a waste of money.

In the half-dozen or so M2 listening evaluation tests that I participated in, the speakers were always powered by Crown I-Tech amps driven with BSS DSP hardware (along with some fancy-pants computer software they were using to write and re-write the DSP programming until the speaker's design was completed). I have no idea if those main engineers (Alan Devantier and Charles Sprinkle) use DCI amps in their home systems; in fact, I'm fairly confident that neither personally owns M2s.

The main reason that I-Tech series amps were originally specified for use with the M2 was the ability of those amps to run the DSP programming required by the M2*. If one is willing to use a BSS DSP unit (I forget which model is required) then any amps can be used with the M2.

One thing everyone tended to agree on about the I-Tech amps was that they were crazy overpowered for use with the M2. The other thing we all agreed on was that the I-Tech cooling fans, which run whenever the amps are powered-up, are way too f***ing loud. They require that the amps be outside of the listening room. While this usually isn't a problem for a recording/mastering studio setup, it's a real PITA for a home listening environment.

*If you're not running the M2 DSP program you don't have M2's. Period. You can tweak that DSP plenty and still have what the designers intended, but you can't eliminate it.