JBL 4367 first listen

[tom1040]

I am not suggesting your Marantz is not a perfect match for you. If you like the sound of it, that is all that should matter. Marantz builds a great amp.

However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work.

Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here.

Well, I am NOT an engineer so I have not the slightest idea so I yield to you on this issue. No matter, really, as I know that a amps ability to control a woofer is more than just watts as I can attest when I changed out the MC402 (400 wpc) to the MA9-S2 (300 wpc @ 8 ohms). I am in the process of selling my Array's---was going to keep them but at this point I will have no room for them as I have a system in my basement that reminds me of my youth and I kind of like the sound. Nothing fancy at all, in fact some may call it low brow but I don't care-if it sounds good to me than that is all that matters. It consists of a Sansui G-8000, JBL 940 & Cerwin Vega DX-9 speakers; BSR eq and a Marantz SA-8001 sacd. Dynamic and loud!

The JBL 4365 should be a decent upgrade from the 1400's and I have a 1500 Array sub to help out if needed with the LF. I am certain the Marantz amps can drive these to stupid SPl and it will sound fine.

[JeffW]

Seems like the 4365 are a few dB more sensitive than the 1400 Array, so if those amps drove the 1400s, I'd think the 4365 would be even easier. I'd use 'em!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Not wanting to start an amp flame war but the back EMF of a woofer is going to be different reflected in an auto transformer to a number of parrell output devices with local feedback (to reduce the output impediance)..

The auto transformer is a nice idea for load matching and if you want a bullet proof design.

The actual loudspeaker bass damping is largely influenced by its mechanical Q and to an extent the electrical Q

The combined Q is called QTS. Designing the system for optimum bass performance assumes the voltage source while not an absolutely a perfect voltage source with an infinitely low source impediance it fits within a range typically less than < 0.1 ohms and > than 0.05 ohm.

The loudspeaker as a system also has in the passive mode a inductor in series with the woofer and a length of connecting cable.

In practise the manufacturer builds the latter into the system tuning and assumptions needs to be made about the source impediance of the amplifier for critical tuning.

The Mcintosh on paper has a rated damping factor of 40 wide band. That equates to 0.2 ohms.

Does this mean the the overall bass performance will be sub optimal? That's a subjective judgement but ideally a perfect voltage source is preferred given the dcr of the inductor and resident connecting cable.

[tom1040]

Seems like the 4365 are a few dB more sensitive than the 1400 Array, so if those amps drove the 1400s, I'd think the 4365 would be even easier. I'd use 'em!

Correct. I plan on using them. As I have stated in the past, I think a lot of people equate current Marantz products with low to mid-fi level Home Theatre and not generally associated with a decent 2 channel stereo system. That, to me, is fine. I certainly cannot change the opinion of people and do not care to. These amps are suitable for me and that is all that matters. The only way others will know is if they actually could hear them. As far as the marketing spin concerning the current output, I am leaving it up to those who I respect for their knowledge of engineering as they are certainly more qualified than I am to render the facts.

[JeffW]

I don't know, I like my Marantz AVRs and they're not even TOTL Marantz. Solid units, I wouldn't buy anything else. I looked at the newer/bigger 70XX line, but I honestly just don't need that much going on. I only upgraded one of my 5003s to a 5008 because I needed another HDMI input (and got a really good deal on the 5008), other than that, the 5003 was killing it - and still is in the man cave where 3 inputs is plenty.

Audiohack owns the 4365 and 1400 Array, he tossed out a theory that the more sensitive woofer in the 4365 means the compression driver doesn't need to be padded down as much to integrate with the woofer - plus the 4" vs 3" compression driver. All I can say is I really liked listening to the 4365 a lot!

[VJunction]

For what it is worth, the amps discussed hear including the MC452 will work fine on the speakers in questions. The only factor I see is the users "sound of amp" preference. As stated some where earlier, room placement and room influnce are larger factory that gets overlooked.

ge

[ngccglp]

Back to topic, not sure how's the bass of the 4367 running in for Jpw. I made similar comments on the bass of newer JBL designs, I noticed the goal seemed to be more to achieve very good mid bass articulation and speed over Low bass extension. That was my experience with the 4365 and M2. I think for certain genre of music (acoustic jazz, vocals) that would work wonderfully, but for rock or rap or music with lots of Low bass content, there's a feeling of 'Can't Get Enough'...

[jpw]

Back to topic, not sure how's the bass of the 4367 running in for Jpw. I made similar comments on the bass of newer JBL designs, I noticed the goal seemed to be more to achieve very good mid bass articulation and speed over Low bass extension. That was my experience with the 4365 and M2. I think for certain genre of music (acoustic jazz, vocals) that would work wonderfully, but for rock or rap or music with lots of Low bass content, there's a feeling of 'Can't Get Enough'...

Agreed. I would again mention that the 4367's (and most other JBL's I have heard over time) are somewhat ripe in the mid to upper bass. To me there is an unfortunate consumer preference driving this voicing that the vast majority of speaker companies understandably cow tow to. Too much bass output in this 80-200hz range actually obscures the deep bass reproduction that is there. So once again back to the need for quality EQ for me, which most if not all JBL's, especially the 4367, accepts very gracefully. Other brands not so well.

My guess is that after 15-20 hours playing time, 80% of break-in is done. The bass becomes more linear and deeper after this time. The overall sound is more relaxed and less forward. Also don't forget that to have the proper balance they need stands in the 5-8 inch height range depending on your ears listening height. Minor complaints aside, I can wait to listen to my 4367's. Very dynamic and alive sounding with low listening fatigue even at elevated levels.

[Mctwins]

Hallo!

I really don't understand what you guy's are talking about regarding bass performance on 4365 or 4367.

I have absolutely no problems listening to rock, rap or even funk music. These speakers can play what ever music categories that is out there. These speakers is not design for specific type of music. Let's say only classical music.

And, I don't use any extra sub.

The problem lies in small room acoustics. and the corntrol of the modal resonances in the room.

How come that the "Spinorama Data" or "JBL 4367 Acoustics Summation" in the white paper showing flat freq response.

[4313B]

I really don't understand what you guy's are talking about regarding bass performance on 4365 or 4367.

It might have to do with what some folks might be used to. If they grew up listening to systems based on transducers like the 124/2203, LE14, 2231/2235 or 2245 they might be used to a bit more very low frequency response.

Copying what Greg, the designer of all these systems, posted earlier in this thread:

The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz.

The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.

I personally have found that he is correct. Although I can listen to these newer systems right out of the box, I personally prefer a few dB of boost at Fb. The M2 already has this boost by virtue of the config file.

[Mctwins]

It might have to do with what some folks might be used to. If they grew up listening to systems based on transducers like the 124/2203, LE14, 2231/2235 or 2245 they might be used to a bit more very low frequency response.

Copying what Greg, the designer of all these systems, posted earlier in this thread:

The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz.

The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.

I personally have found that he is correct. Although I can listen to these newer systems right out of the box, I personally prefer a few dB of boost at Fb. The M2 already has this boost by virtue of the config file.

I understand the point here.

I am just listening to my 4365 and in my dbx260 adjusted the 32hz with a boost of 6dB both in PrePeq and in Post Peq seperatly. With various Q factor.

Greg dosen't meantion what Q factor and "around 32Hz" means from 25-40Hz?

Honestly, I don't hear any difference in my system with this boost on or off.

If M2 has these boost dosen't mean that the 4365 has to have it, or??

[Mr. Widget]

Honestly, I don't hear any difference in my system with this boost on or off.

Most music doesn't have appreciable content down there, but if the music does, you should hear the difference.


Widget

[Mctwins]

Most music doesn't have appreciable content down there, but if the music does, you should hear the difference.


Widget

Thanks for the info, I am aware of this.

I will later on test it again with good content bass music.

[grumpy]

Also recall that 6dB, in human hearing terms, isn't a huge difference ... even though the increase in power is quite significant (watch those excursions and clip indicators ).

Earlier this week I was treated to a listening session where each of four 15" drivers had a dedicated ~1000w amp. This did not seem excessive and the system (in room) firmly reached the mid 20's, which was indeed quite noticeable with the right material.

[ngccglp]

Hallo!

I really don't understand what you guy's are talking about regarding bass performance on 4365 or 4367.

I have absolutely no problems listening to rock, rap or even funk music. These speakers can play what ever music categories that is out there. These speakers is not design for specific type of music. Let's say only classical music.

And, I don't use any extra sub.

The problem lies in small room acoustics. and the corntrol of the modal resonances in the room.

How come that the "Spinorama Data" or "JBL 4367 Acoustics Summation" in the white paper showing flat freq response.

Mr Widget is right, if its in the music you would hear it.

Also because you do not have a system to compare it with, you would not know what is missing...