JBL 4367 first listen

[LowPhreak]

Other than being a face only a Mother could love, the Studio series is really great sounding stuff. The little compression driver is amazing and Jerry Moro did a great job on the woofers. We had them made in China, but the supplier implemented Jerry's design. We had a jerk for an Industrial Designer at the time and his taste was all in his mouth. I did what I could to salvage the acoustics of the design and fortunately, they work as well as stuff costing 2 or 3 times the money. The fit and finish isn't so great but buy them for the sound. They use really good components so they should last a very long time.

Thank you for the reply, Greg.

Yes, they're not as handsome as say my old Nautilus 803s and REL Stentor III or others I've owned. I do like their sound better than the 803's though and that's saying something.

By the way - It took a bit of doing to get the cherry finish from Chris Smith in Northridge in undamaged condition, which was at least an improvement over the ubiquitous, very homely, generic black of not one, but a second pair of 580's that both had factory cab damage right out of the box. However, I've discovered that if you stay back at the listening position, or further back near the bar with a few drinks and keep the lights down, you might think they're some Avalons with that odd, angular style, (...the girls all look prettier at closing time?).



Also had a helluva time getting replacement grilles from Chris (he couldn't find any for almost a year) because the originals didn't lay flush to the surface as they should in the area above the top woofer. I asked him how hard could it have been for the designer to spec another set of mounting studs there? I was going to return them. A bit careless design I'd say, or maybe it would have cost Harmin' another 13¢ per? The new grilles still aren't great but I decided to give up the hunt and just live with it.

They sound very good and that's what matters. Thanks for the effort.


*Pardon me for the OT, gents. Carry on!

[jpw]

Interesting. Have you heard the 4365 with the McIntosh MC452?

I have not. But I have heard the S4700 on the MC-452 which is a similar speaker and had an excellent outcome.

I consider the MC-452 one of the great amplifiers of our time especially for it's price. Dead quiet, effortless, absolutely clean and huge sounding. Never lean or mean, never slow or lacking detail. I have yet to find a speaker it does not work well with, although system synergy means there is always a reason to try other amps for individual best result.

It's technical performance is unimpeachable and it also offers a level of protection for your expensive speaker drivers not available with other solid state amps. These features include anti clipping Power Guard, output transformers that can not pass DC, and Sentry Guard which prevents a shorted speaker lead from damaging the amp. In the last few years, my store had two separate pairs of Magico speakers damaged when DC took out both woofers in both pairs. Needless to say this was not covered under warranty and cost $3500. I won't mention the amplifier brand but will say that it is a revered high end name that all here would immediately recognize.

However if one is looking for ultimate bass control in an amplifier there are other amps that offer more than the MC-452. Most recently the Levinson 532H, Krell EVO 402, Krell Duo 300 and the ARC DS-450/225 Class D amps all offer more control, but not necessarily a more natural bass. Once again, if you do a comparison with different amps with a room corrected speaker, your conclusion may be different about how much control you think you need. Sometimes amps with the most control can end up sounding too lean or over damped in the bottom end.

[tom1040]

This norwegian guy tried dual mc601 on his 4365, and was not completely satisfied. I think he uses dual mc1.2 now. There are pics in the end of the thread:
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...ftet-mitt.html

Wow. That is not a good indicator that the MC452 or MC601 mono blocks would be up for the job for the 4365. Interesting......

[tom1040]

I guess I will use my Marantz MA9-S2 mono blocks on the 4365 and find something else for the Array's. There is no doubt in my mind that the Marantz will control those 15 inchers.....

[jpw]

Wow. That is not a good indicator that the MC452 or MC601 mono blocks would be up for the job for the 4365. Interesting......

I suspect the Norwegian audiophile has other problems than inadequate damping factor or inadequate power. Try reading this paper from Floyd Toole about damping factor. It's from around 1975 but the physics and math has not changed. The take away from this and other engineering papers is that damping factor has quickly diminishing returns over a factor of 20.

https://www.google.com/search?q=damp...amned+nonsense

[tom1040]

I suspect the Norwegian audiophile has other problems than inadequate damping factor or inadequate power. Try reading this paper from Floyd Toole about damping factor. It's from around 1975 but the physics and math has not changed. The take away from this and other engineering papers is that damping factor has quickly diminishing returns over a factor of 20.

https://www.google.com/search?q=damp...amned+nonsense

I have never thought of damping factor as a huge factor in amps ability to control woofers and the complex crossovers that are designed today. Perhaps I should, I don't know. Since I got back into audio a few years ago, I have been advised that the 'current' a amp generates is a larger indicator of being able to 'control' speakers. The Marantz that I spoke about is known to have 150 amps of current(in short bursts)to handle such issues a speaker could have.

But what do I know? Not much. I just want to get this next amp purchase for the 4365 right.

[sebackman]

Excuse a stupid question. Is the horn in 4365 and 4367 black or dark Grey (Antacit-ish)?

kind regards
//RoB

[1audiohack]

My 4365's horns are a charcoal metalic with the metalic being closer to graphite gray rather than silver.

Barry.

[sebackman]

Thank you.

-Just looking for inspiration on how to paint my WG's. On the other side, Black is such a happy color :-).

kind regards
//RoB

[jpw]

I have never thought of damping factor as a huge factor in amps ability to control woofers and the complex crossovers that are designed today. Perhaps I should, I don't know. Since I got back into audio a few years ago, I have been advised that the 'current' a amp generates is a larger indicator of being able to 'control' speakers. The Marantz that I spoke about is known to have 150 amps of current(in short bursts)to handle such issues a speaker could have.

But what do I know? Not much. I just want to get this next amp purchase for the 4365 right.

I am not suggesting your Marantz is not a perfect match for you. If you like the sound of it, that is all that should matter. Marantz builds a great amp.

However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work.

Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here.

[Retroman]

"However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work. Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here. "

Are not Ohm's Law calculations valid for only for DC resistance? As speakers and amplifiers are AC devices, basic Ohm's Law formulas are not advanced enough to provide accurate values. It would be great if an electronics engineer reading this could elaborate on this topic!

[jpw]

"However unless you have a very low impedance speaker, unlike the 4365, there is a limit to how much current you can actual draw from the amp because of Ohm's law. A 200 watt amp into 8 ohms only draws 5 amps continuous. Into 4 ohms only 7.07 amps. Even if your amp puts out double the power to 400 watts on peaks your max peak current is 10 amps into 4 ohms. Pull your amp lid or check a service manual on line to see your power supply rail fuse size for yourself. I will bet it is a fast blow style under 10 amps. Even figuring an instantaneous peak current and multiplying these values by 1.414 will not make this ultra high current argument work. Assuming the Marantz can actually deliver the 150 instantaneous amps it claims, it would deliver 95,000 peak watts (not a typo) into a 4 ohms speaker. I think you can see that some rather optimistic marketing might be involved here. "

Are not Ohm's Law calculations valid for only for DC resistance? As speakers and amplifiers are AC devices, basic Ohm's Law formulas are not advanced enough to provide accurate values. It would be great if an electronics engineer reading this could elaborate on this topic!

Yes very true and I am not arguing against what you say. BUT, even allowing a lot of leeway for varying speaker impedance and phase angle the kind of current numbers some manufacturers throw around, even if really achieved, would be extreme overkill. They are also usually misleading in that one can not come close to passing 150 peak amps of current (as claimed in the post from Tom 1040 regarding a Marantz amp) through a 10 amp fast blow rail fuse. It's like claiming a 250 mph top end on a car but having it electronically limited to 120 mph.

I certainly am not saying current isn't important, but current clipping can be measured or calculated*. If current clipping was a problem with well designed amps at the high end of audio, it would be an easily solved problem by just making the output stage and power supply bigger. *Trying Googling "equivalent peak dissipation resistance" (EPDR) for a good article from Stereophile on the current demands faced by an amplifier driving a real world speaker.

Now back to the question by Tom 1040 about the McIntosh MC-452's suitability for driving the 4365's he has. I just don't think that the sonic disappointment reported by the 4365 owner in Norway using a McIntosh MC-452 has anything to do with current capability shortfall (unless some how he is on the wrong output tap). Neither the 4365 or 4367 are unusually low in impedance or severe in phase angle and both are also high in sensitivity. High current is far more important with the opposite combination. It's far more likely the intrinsic sound of the MAC amp just wasn't to his taste or that he has other problems in his system or room that he needs to consider.

[LowPhreak]

Here's an idea: try this one -

Bass impact, overall bottom end, clarity, definition, spatial?


https://youtu.be/r8S7Nn6si0E


If your speakers don't let you commune with what Jack and Ginger are doing, get something else.

[hsosdrum]

Here's an idea: try this one -

Bass impact, overall bottom end, clarity, definition, spatial?


https://youtu.be/r8S7Nn6si0E


If your speakers don't let you commune with what Jack and Ginger are doing, get something else.

Most definitely agreed, but for cryin' out loud don't make any judgements based on a YouTube video—use the DVD, which has a DTS surround soundtrack.

[LowPhreak]

Most definitely agreed, but for cryin' out loud don't make any judgements based on a YouTube video—use the DVD, which has a DTS surround soundtrack.

Well of course not. It was just easier to post the YT link as an example. I have the disc and it's quite good.