Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[Wagner]

For someone with such precious little time you sure waste a lot of it spewing your bias here in this otherwise civil thread.

That article has been in circulation amongst the CD fanboys since the first of the year
I read it over at Hooffie's place 9 months ago
It's "spewing bias" when someone dares to disagree with the group think? Or at least the little CD/digital fanboy cluster?
And not even that; I'm only trying to point put that when you speak in such absolutes you are the one exhibiting the "bias"

I do know this, they can't get enough presses up and running to fill the demand for vinyl

JVC and EMI just shut down and sold off what was left of the U.S.A.'s largest CD production facility
So, they "spewing bias" too? PERCENTAGE wise, NOT UNIT SALES, the Lp is kicking the CD's ass right now, so SOMEBODY likes it (I'm sorry, thinks it "sounds better", 'cause this "Catcher in the Rye" in the back pocket blow off insult, little hipster comparison/explanation shit to explain the comeback in popularity of the format is getting old (and only accounts for a part of it) Plus, if you open yur eyes, you will see and learn that those little hipsters ARE catching on and seeking out better and better performing turntables, cartridges and arms. Those sales are up substantially as well. Is that "spewing" my bias for me to point that out?

Don't babble with your lay speak pseudo science (YOUR personal knowledge) in an attempt to dismiss a large segment of Humanity's feelings about one of their five senses, not yours or Bob Ludwig's opinion means jack to those who just don't agree with you..................it's just that simple. All you are doing is burping up things you've read and heard

I don't understand why you and others can't understand what it is I am attempting to get across here good buddy, I could give a shit which format you love or think is better............and as for those beating the digital drum the loudest, there's a definite conflict of interest/hurt feelings at work here. The CD's been kicked in the nuts, the kids want them less and less, if at all, but they have embraced vinyl and are gobbling it up like crack...........plus, the tens of thousands of Lp fans world wide that never gave up

You cannot KNOW or speak to what "sounds better" to ANOTHER Human being, so give it up.............yeah, in my dreams...................

[brutal]

I am going to be 100% honest and tell you that I did not and am not going to read your article.
I skimmed it and saw towards the bottom: Neil Young, Jack White, PONO and everybody knows what's best except those who don't know anything, right there in the sub-title of the piece and restated a second time at the bottom. That's enough for me.
Life is too short.

I do not and never have understood the incessant noise on the "subject". It barely qualifies as a mental exercise or debate and it's certainly not an interesting one. It's a "them or us" conversation for many and a "why, I have some of BOTH that I think are great" "why there'e nothing wrong with having BOTH" (the calming position of the Audio Peace Makers on the boards when the flames start to fly) and can go no where, yet people (some) will "fight the fight" to prove who's "right" forever or so it seems.

99.9% of the gibberish posted over at the Hoffman forums (a place where this "discussion" will thrive until the plug is pulled, along with "how many copies of "The White Album" is too many?") seems to eventually get back to the question eventually, as if one were to "debate" it long enough a universal consensus would be reached. That, or the unwashed (as viewed by either side) would become converts or surrender and confess the error of their ways.
That's even if the thread started life as one about a turntable or a cartridge.....................OR a particular CD player currently trending........
Borders on a religious fanaticism at times. Someone's always on the lookout for a soul to save when it comes to this topic.

The way I see it, around 1982 or so a technology came along that in a fairly short period of time took the ready availability of something familiar (and LOVED for decades) away from a bunch of folks due to market forces, and some of them have been REALLY pissed off about it ever since, BUT, this change made a LOT of folks happy, so much so that they (both sides of this coin) will babble and argue endlessly on a subject that they, in reality (most of them) actually know very little about (the technology side of things).

I already had to live through the Lp versus CD fight of the early '90s amongst fellow music lovers.........and the biggest unreported skirmish of them all, "which format makes for a better cassette recording"! But it was early on in The Format Wars and was a friendly sort of picking, like ragging on a friend for his love of a football team other than yours..................it didn't come with charts, graphs and measurements. Seems like it was still more about the music then too..............those early days of the "digital revolution"........

I personally love and prefer Lps in most instances. The only thing I really like about CDs is the fact that I can handle them while drinking heavily (used to) with little to no worries and they're portable (though even that's no longer the case by today's standards). So "old skool"; "physical media" they call it.

Reality and what's available on what format has caused me to buy and own many titles on CD. I'm glad to have them. For many many many titles the choice isn't even applicable (although that seems to be changing as of late due to the current trend of the Vinyl Renaissance)
I probably have, percentage wise, just as many Lps as CDs that sound like shit to my ears, so go figure. If I had MY choice................but then again, and nowadays, I just don't.........
I also PREFER rotary telephones (W.E. and S-C for sound quality and the ability to deliver it for an ENTIRE conversation), land lines and answering machines that are intelligible (use a tape) but for the most part with regards to THAT preference I'm just shit out of luck as well. Can't "dial 1" for English.
Like I said, never saw the point and to each his own. Exactly the same as "what tastes better?".

Talk about

I'm going to be 100% honest and tell you that I won't bother reading any thread I see you posting in.

Seriously dude, you're ruining LHF for me and I only pop in here once in a while as of late. All I ever see is you berating and belittling the fine folks of this forum and you pounding your chest.

Talk about give it a flippin rest with the negativity and belligerence!

[Ian Mackenzie]

If "recording and mastering" are "off topic" in a thread comparing the sonic virtues of two different formats that arrive at their finished form via these two activities as part of the process, then what exactly constitutes a "properly done CD"?

And rather than your suggested title of "Why CDs Can Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl." just go for your true and original intent and title it "Why CDs DO Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl." and be done with it..............
...............because that's been your point all along anyway

I understand. It's always nice and reassuring to find one's own feelings on matters, whatever they may be, validated by others in "print", especially when those others are "experts" and even "illustrious" as you put it.

And that is FINE if you feel that way, I am happy you are happy.....................but that article?
It's a bull shit fluff piece written by some non-audio person for a kids' "alternative" rag and reflects nothing in large part but opinions, Bob Ludwig's included (there were a few points of fact such as who did what and where and who said what)

You and others have missed no opportunity to put some sort of qualification or condition on the playback quality of Lps and to point out it's limitations in areas such as "dynamic range" and how much "better" digital "measures" in any number of areas, with every remark and "observation" made............as if those who prefer the sound of vinyl are just "wrong" and won't acknowledge the "proof" that "science" has to offer OR maybe that they'll convert and beg redemption if only shown the error of their ways and ignorance..............just one more time?

The agenda is clear, and I'll say it again, that's fine. You need to drop the word "better" and possibly use the words "potentially more accurate representation" and even THEN the finished product, on any given one of millions of playback systems may still not "sound better" to a given pair of ears and a brain..............be it an Lp or a CD

The conversation is absurd; you (as in anyone) cannot "tell" another Human being what is "better", whether it's which barbecue place to go to, or burger or beer or cigar or Lp or CD..............or blonde or brunette.........or guys who like fat girls.................it's ALL subjective once the verb SOUNDS is followed by the adjective BETTER

SONY and Philips made EVERY POINT flailed at in that "article" and then some. The WORLD for the large part bought it. What else do you want?

The deal's been sealed since the early '80s, tired of hearing the damned sales pitch still; I think everyone on the planet, with the possible exception of some lost aboriginal tribe, heard it the first time. Even all the Sub-Saharan Africans heard it.
The marketing and the format both proved to be very successful, but interestingly, not successful enough to eclipse compact cassettes until well into the first half of the '90s
Now THAT'S a navel you can contemplate

It's funny how quickly and rabid this all became after the initial launch of the CD, and NOT just with audiophiles. What passion, what zeal! The "digital revolution" had begun; evolve or get out of the way! And that arrogance has persisted to this day.

CD eclipsed vinyl in unit sales DECADES ago and yet this insistence on touting it's technical virtues over that of the Lp persists to this very day, a day by the way that is seeing the CD sales on a rapid decline

What a crock of shit, telling someone what's "better" when it involves one of the Five Senses. I especially love it when it comes from folks who don't even own the one they're banging on, be it the CD player or the turntable camper, happens a lot.

Who gives a shit what Bob Ludwig says is better?

You come to the party with some cobbled together opinion piece (on a topic which remains "hot button", again I have no idea why), throw it out there and then get all huffy puffy when you don't get unanimous agreement on just how "right" it is? I mean what did you expect? You state you have been an audio enthusiast for decades, so you know the nature of this topic and the responses it elicits (ergo: ) and yet you persist to whine that not everyone will agree with you and your article?!

You are either trolling or naive. And to make matters worse, I think nearly every post here has acknowledged the fact that we all own and enjoy numerous examples, both good and bad, of BOTH formats in our Music collections. A remarkable amount of restraint and maturity has been demonstrated here, especially if one were to make just a cursory comparison of how this one lights up on other forums..............

So, exactly what is the response you are looking for or need to hear?

Intentional or not the racist remarks in this post are un acceptable.

Please refrain from posting or accept harsh consequences.

[Ian Mackenzie]

If "recording and mastering" are "off topic" in a thread comparing the sonic virtues of two different formats that arrive at their finished form via these two activities as part of the process, then what exactly constitutes a "properly done CD"?

And rather than your suggested title of "Why CDs Can Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl." just go for your true and original intent and title it "Why CDs DO Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl." and be done with it..............
...............because that's been your point all along anyway

I understand. It's always nice and reassuring to find one's own feelings on matters, whatever they may be, validated by others in "print", especially when those others are "experts" and even "illustrious" as you put it.

And that is FINE if you feel that way, I am happy you are happy.....................but that article?
It's a bull shit fluff piece written by some non-audio person for a kids' "alternative" rag and reflects nothing in large part but opinions, Bob Ludwig's included (there were a few points of fact such as who did what and where and who said what)

You and others have missed no opportunity to put some sort of qualification or condition on the playback quality of Lps and to point out it's limitations in areas such as "dynamic range" and how much "better" digital "measures" in any number of areas, with every remark and "observation" made............as if those who prefer the sound of vinyl are just "wrong" and won't acknowledge the "proof" that "science" has to offer OR maybe that they'll convert and beg redemption if only shown the error of their ways and ignorance..............just one more time?

The agenda is clear, and I'll say it again, that's fine. You need to drop the word "better" and possibly use the words "potentially more accurate representation" and even THEN the finished product, on any given one of millions of playback systems may still not "sound better" to a given pair of ears and a brain..............be it an Lp or a CD

The conversation is absurd; you (as in anyone) cannot "tell" another Human being what is "better", whether it's which barbecue place to go to, or burger or beer or cigar or Lp or CD..............or blonde or brunette.........or guys who like fat girls.................it's ALL subjective once the verb SOUNDS is followed by the adjective BETTER

SONY and Philips made EVERY POINT flailed at in that "article" and then some. The WORLD for the large part bought it. What else do you want?

The deal's been sealed since the early '80s, tired of hearing the damned sales pitch still; I think everyone on the planet, with the possible exception of some lost aboriginal tribe, heard it the first time. Even all the Sub-Saharan Africans heard it.
The marketing and the format both proved to be very successful, but interestingly, not successful enough to eclipse compact cassettes until well into the first half of the '90s
Now THAT'S a navel you can contemplate

It's funny how quickly and rabid this all became after the initial launch of the CD, and NOT just with audiophiles. What passion, what zeal! The "digital revolution" had begun; evolve or get out of the way! And that arrogance has persisted to this day.

CD eclipsed vinyl in unit sales DECADES ago and yet this insistence on touting it's technical virtues over that of the Lp persists to this very day, a day by the way that is seeing the CD sales on a rapid decline

What a crock of shit, telling someone what's "better" when it involves one of the Five Senses. I especially love it when it comes from folks who don't even own the one they're banging on, be it the CD player or the turntable camper, happens a lot.

Who gives a shit what Bob Ludwig says is better?

You come to the party with some cobbled together opinion piece (on a topic which remains "hot button", again I have no idea why), throw it out there and then get all huffy puffy when you don't get unanimous agreement on just how "right" it is? I mean what did you expect? You state you have been an audio enthusiast for decades, so you know the nature of this topic and the responses it elicits (ergo: ) and yet you persist to whine that not everyone will agree with you and your article?!

You are either trolling or naive. And to make matters worse, I think nearly every post here has acknowledged the fact that we all own and enjoy numerous examples, both good and bad, of BOTH formats in our Music collections. A remarkable amount of restraint and maturity has been demonstrated here, especially if one were to make just a cursory comparison of how this one lights up on other forums..............

So, exactly what is the response you are looking for or need to hear?

Intentional or not the racist remarks in this post are un acceptable.

Please refrain from posting such comments or accept harsh consequences.

[Allanvh5150]

There are racist remarks in the post?

Allan.

[Ian Mackenzie]

References to some lost Aboriginal tribe or both derogatory and racist.

The fact is he used the indifference to make a point tells me this Th I s poster does not belong here.

[speakerdave]

Personally I think Jack White is a genius.

Quoting myself from a 2009 thread (Why not? Has something new been said?)

For me vinyl is:
--all those records I already had
--all those records that were at garage sales, thrift stores and used vinyl dealers, from the people that wanted only the latest technology (the early CD's that I found literally unlistenable)
--the jazz reissues that are still available for about ten, twelve bucks, like right now, Leeway with Lee Morgan, Jackie McLean, Bobby Timmons, Paul Chambers and Art Blakey
--the spendy remastered heavy vinyl reissues that are very good-sounding
--sometimes ticky and poppy, which I seem better able to overlook than the machine glier of poorly done digital
--high maintenance
--subject to noticebly greater inner groove distortion.
--only at its best when played on equipment I will probably never own

Redbook CD's are:
--for some reason better than they were at the beginning
--often revealed to be better than you think when played on a better player
--probably the medium for which playback is most reasonably near-optimized, and that with a decent transport and an outboard DAC, but in truth are also
--at their best when played on equipment I will probably never own

SACD is:
--overall the best medium, which, unfortunately very few people ever actually heard do what it could;
--a victim of many bad decisions about how best to deploy a brilliant new technology
--an experience which sometimes makes me wish the world were run by holy poet kings who could say, "This is good; let's do this, do it right and forget this other stuff."
--at its best played on equipment I will probably never own

[Wagner]

References to some lost Aboriginal tribe or both derogatory and racist.

The fact is he used the indifference to make a point tells me this Th I s poster does not belong here.

I seriously resent your accusation friend, "intentional or not". There was not a modicum of "racism" intended with my use of that word to make my point; in fact, I was a bit stupefied when I read your spurious accusation, like "what in the hell is this guy talking about?"

If Allan had not asked the question and you had not responded, I would have never known!

What is racist about the phrase "lost aboriginal tribe"? To convey a sense of isolation, separation and distance from the modern world?..............explain to me how the word aboriginal is racist

I'd love to know how it's a "racist" word in any other context for that matter??????? Please explain

And "derogatory"? You've lost me with that one as well as with "The fact is he used the indifference to make a point". Indifference to what? I have no idea what in the hell you are talking about. It's bizarre.

Used to convey separated/isolated/uninvaded upon by the "electrified"/mechanized/"Western" world friend, as in out of earshot.............absolutely, positively NOTHING racist in, meant or intended by that example.............a way to describe out of earshot or coverage reach

"Racist", you have to be kidding me, and "used the indifference"? Again, exactly what does that mean, please.

Thomas

[Wagner]

There are racist remarks in the post?

Allan.

No, there are not, I assure you

Thomas

[Wagner]

Someone starts a thread which leads to the inevitable CD vs. Lp "discussion" and by page three folks are talking about "spewing" "bias" "name calling" and even accusing some of being racists and threatening them with consequences.................when does Godwin's Law kick in?

Thomas

[speakerdave]

If there were a lost aboriginal tribe, who would know?

[Wagner]

References to some lost Aboriginal tribe or both derogatory and racist.

I'll say it again as plainly as I can, as you appear to "read things in" that are not there:
That statement is absurd, not true and you owe me an apology.

[Wagner]

If there were a lost aboriginal tribe, who would know?

Exactly, and they would have been spared the "Perfect Sound Forever" blitz as well!

On a serous note, they do turn up from time to time. I think the last of which I am aware are a small group of people deep in the jungles of South America near the river
Allegedly, until this documentary was filmed, they had not had contact with "modern" man for more than 5000 years

[Wagner]

I'm going to be 100% honest and tell you that I won't bother reading any thread I see you posting in.

Seriously dude, you're ruining LHF for me and I only pop in here once in a while as of late. All I ever see is you berating and belittling the fine folks of this forum and you pounding your chest.

Talk about give it a flippin rest with the negativity and belligerence!

You click on my name "Wagner" click "profile" in the little bubble, my page will come up, you look at the left side of the page and you will see "ignore this member"
Click on that
It will ask you, "are you sure"? Tell them "yes"
After that, you will never see another word written by me again
You're problem will be solved
I've used it quite a few times, extremely effective

[JeffW]

You click on my name "Wagner" click "profile" in the little bubble, my page will come up, you look at the left side of the page and you will see "ignore this member"
Click on that
It will ask you, "are you sure"? Tell them "yes"
After that, you will never see another word written by me again
You're problem will be solved

Not quite. Any of your posts that are quoted will still show up.

Ron White, on being arrested for public intoxication:

"I had the right to remain silent - but I didn't have the ability"

Food for thought?