DingDing goes DIY: JBL 2404 mounted inside or outside 2360A and one or two 2123?

[DingDing]

First time speaker builder, but have done subs in the past. In the process of planning and have all parts needed, less wood, but that's easy. The concept is to achieve extreme dynamics from 60 Hz up, as I've got ample headroom below 60 already.

Crossover, got 12 channels from a pair of miniDSP 4x10 HD's available. Time aligning drivers will be done digitally.

The idea is using at least two 2226 per speaker, they will be sealed and EQ'ed a little bit to give good extension down to about 60 Hz. Furthermore, there will be at least one 2123. So: 2404 or 2405 + 2446 in 2360A + 2123 + 2226.

Thinking a lot about how to incorporate 2404 (or 2405) together with 2360A. I can put the uhf driver inside the cabinet for the mids (separate enclosure inside the big cabinet) and woofers or mount it inside or outside the horn.

The 2360A's has a pair of holes and I could build a jig there to place the UHF driver in, either inside or outside the chassis. Planned XO is approx 6-10khz. Not quite sure yet. Kind of like this.

Inside:


Outside:


My take on late night light photoshopping random pictures from the web, lol. Is this a niet, niet? Why?

Two or more 2226's will yield very high sensitivity and a single 2123 will be the limiting factor. Could I use a pair in each or would that create all sorts of problems? What if I mount them super close like I see some PA-systems does with multiples? Can they cover the same range without issues? I was hoping I could have them go to 1.3-1.6kHz approx before 2446 takes the stage.

Front loaded horn for the one or two 2123 may be an option, but can't model with hornresp, so haven't looked into it much.

Any input? Please be gentle.

[Lee in Montreal]

Yes. You could run two 2226 and a single 2360. With proper eq, you won't really need a tweeter. Actually, if you like sizzling highs, then maybe you could use a different horn. Maybe a Yuchi 290 and couple it to a 2405.

BTW Those 2226 needs some serious bumping around 40Hz (with Q = around 1.0) to get that nice round and deep bass. Get at least 5cft per driver.

Keep this a two-way and you won't be disapointed. Your sub(s) will fill in foe the bottom octavle. It is what I do with my 2226 and 2360

Lee

PS Bass reflex tuned to 50Hz. Cross the 2226 at around 600-700Hz to the 2360. Use a 2445 as it was designed for the 2360.

[DingDing]

Yes. You could run two 2226 and a single 2360. With proper eq, you won't really need a tweeter. Actually, if you like sizzling highs, then maybe you could use a different horn. Maybe a Yuchi 290 and couple it to a 2405.

BTW Those 2226 needs some serious bumping around 40Hz (with Q = around 1.0) to get that nice round and deep bass. Get at least 5cft per driver.

Keep this a two-way and you won't be disapointed. Your sub(s) will fill in foe the bottom octavle. It is what I do with my 2226 and 2360

Lee

PS Bass reflex tuned to 40Hz. Cross the 2226 at around 600-700Hz to the 2360. Use a 2445 as it was designed for the 2360.

Thanks for the input, I have a 2445J too, but need another one to make a pair, why is 2445 better suited than 2446 for 2360A?

I'm running two 2226's with 2360 now. It's great. XO @ 600, just like you say. The 2404 is sitting preliminary for testing, and I think it benefits the highs immensely. Current XO @ 10khz at the -6dB point. Makes the breakup/ringing of Ti less prominent.

However, my experience with 4343 says that there is great merit to that 10" 2121 driver, hence why 2123 was bought for this project. I really want to see how that driver will fit into this scheme.

[Lee in Montreal]

How did you eq the 2360?

[DingDing]

I didn't investigate it a lot because it subjectively sounded hard without any EQ.

I did do a slight negative peak filter at 10 kHz with and without a positive high shelf above, but it didn't work well for me subjectively. I didn't measure though, did it all by ear. I gave it a week until I hooked up 2404 and thought the result was substantially better. I think it's the 10khz or later Titanium ringing my ears can't stand because the peak filter helped somewhat, but not to the extent 2404 did.

[Lee in Montreal]

I didn't investigate it a lot because it subjectively sounded hard without any EQ.

I did do a slight negative peak filter at 10 kHz with and without a positive high shelf above, but it didn't work well for me subjectively. I didn't measure though, did it all by ear. I gave it a week until I hooked up 2404 and thought the result was substantially better. I think it's the 10khz or later Titanium ringing my ears can't stand because the peak filter helped somewhat, but not to the extent 2404 did.

"slight" is not enough, hence your decision to add a tweeter. The correction is of around 12db. When I am back from riding Mississippi, I'll give you a screenshot of the correction I did. For more details, I suggest you look into "CD correction"

Start here http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-install/page3

[1audiohack]

For aluminum, the genuine JBL article, the D16R2441.

Now that said, if you use aluminum, and if you are not going to run a super tweeter, the lack of that "extra energy" of a ribbed 2450 diaphragm will require you add even more EQ to the top end and in my experience this sounds even more strained than the "noisy" 2450 diaphragms do.

Are you using a protection capacitor on the 2446's? A 10uF on an 8 Ohm version or a 20uF on a 16 Ohm will get about 6dB out of the mid band and lessen the EQ requirements for the top octave while offering some protection in the process, cheap, easy, and to me it sounds better than 18dB of boost on top.

If you are for sure going to use 2404's or 2405's with them you could use D16R2440's (still available new) in them and they willl just shut off about 9.5kHz by themselves. That's really about where that long parellel wall slot in a 2360 starts to sound rough anyway. Integrating a 2405 (what I would use) with a 2360 really well is a challenge but this is the combination I liked the best. I have done all of the above by the way.

It seems no one tests the coated smooth Ti SL's (D16R2450SL) or the D8475Nd diaphragms. Ever wonder why?

Barry.

[audiomagnate]

Yes. You could run two 2226 and a single 2360. With proper eq, you won't really need a tweeter. Actually, if you like sizzling highs, then maybe you could use a different horn. Maybe a Yuchi 290 and couple it to a 2405.

BTW Those 2226 needs some serious bumping around 40Hz (with Q = around 1.0) to get that nice round and deep bass. Get at least 5cft per driver.

Keep this a two-way and you won't be disapointed. Your sub(s) will fill in foe the bottom octavle. It is what I do with my 2226 and 2360

Lee

PS Bass reflex tuned to 50Hz. Cross the 2226 at around 600-700Hz to the 2360. Use a 2445 as it was designed for the 2360.

I disagree about being able to use EQ to negate the need of a tweeter. the dispersion just isn't there. It doesn't sound right at all to my ears.

[1audiohack]

I certainly agree and love the magic of a 2123. A snare played full stick will nearly crack the enamel on your teeth and 2123 will replicate that better than any other cone driver I have ever had.

Being as you already have plenty of linear overlap between the 2226's and 2360's that a single 2123 will play loud enough.

Barry.

[ivica]

First time speaker builder, but have done subs in the past. In the process of planning and have all parts needed, less wood, but that's easy. The concept is to achieve extreme dynamics from 60 Hz up, as I've got ample headroom below 60 already. Crossover, got 12 channels from a pair of miniDSP 4x10 HD's available. Time aligning drivers will be done digitally. The idea is using at least two 2226 per speaker, they will be sealed and EQ'ed a little bit to give good extension down to about 60 Hz. Furthermore, there will be at least one 2123. So: 2404 or 2405 + 2446 in 2360A + 2123 + 2226. Thinking a lot about how to incorporate 2404 (or 2405) together with 2360A. I can put the uhf driver inside the cabinet for the mids (separate enclosure inside the big cabinet) and woofers or mount it inside or outside the horn. The 2360A's has a pair of holes and I could build a jig there to place the UHF driver in, either inside or outside the chassis. Planned XO is approx 6-10khz. Not quite sure yet. Kind of like this. Two or more 2226's will yield very high sensitivity and a single 2123 will be the limiting factor. Could I use a pair in each or would that create all sorts of problems? What if I mount them super close like I see some PA-systems does with multiples? Can they cover the same range without issues? I was hoping I could have them go to 1.3-1.6kHz approx before 2446 takes the stage. Front loaded horn for the one or two 2123 may be an option, but can't model with hornresp, so haven't looked into it much. Any input? Please be gentle.

Hi DingDing, Why not 2242 + 2226+ 2123+ 2446&2360 +2405..... regards ivica

[DingDing]

Hi DingDing, Why not 2242 + 2226+ 2123+ 2446&2360 +2405..... regards ivica

Hi ivica.

Seen the price of 2242 lately?

I'm using four LMS Ultra 5400 from about 40-60 Hz and down, sealed. They are monsters and super ugly, but sq-wise they are amongst if not the best long throw drivers in the world according to many. Very happy with how they perform and they are faaar more than I need already. I think I'm covered there.

[Lee in Montreal]

Hey DingDing

Try Google Translation on this one. Basically, the guy unplugged the 2123 for the lower medium range. Not needed. My suggestion is to keep it as sinple as possible. And only add a driver if you can't really do without. Pair of 2226 and 2360 shall be enough. ;-)

http://www.melaudia.net/brufa1205-01.php

[DingDing]

^ Thank you for the resource, did read it. It may be a mistake to incorporate it, but can't resist trying seeing how easy it is to try as I have the drivers and miniDSP. In light of this the system will be modular with everything in separate enclosures so I can just remove or reorient different drivers depending on results. This way I can try many combinations.

Reading online people seem pretty divided between multi way and 2-way. My experience with 4430 vs 4343 (w/2121h & 2235h) puts the latter on top by quite a margin, and that has been some of the inspiration behind the desire to incorporate many drivers. May even try to do something Everest and 4435 does, which is to put the LPF lower on one 2226 to up the sensitivity as frequency drops (as I understand it).

[1audiohack]

The single pole low pass on a dual woofer system can be a good idea depending on several factors including the upper crossover point and the physical seperation of the drivers involved.

If you have each woofer on a seperate DSP channel that you can also manipulate the delay between them you can really have some tuning fun.

I think everyone should build a five way active system at least once but beware, if you don't have some measurement equipment and know how to use it, the probability for frustration seems to multiply by an order of magnitude with each element added.

Barry.

[DingDing]

The single pole low pass on a dual woofer system can be a good idea depending on several factors including the upper crossover point and the physical seperation of the drivers involved.

If you have each woofer on a seperate DSP channel that you can also manipulate the delay between them you can really have some tuning fun.

I think everyone should build a five way active system at least once but beware, if you don't have some measurement equipment and know how to use it, the probability for frustration seems to multiply by an order of magnitude with each element added.

Barry.

That's motivating to read

The goal is to have the drivers closely together so they connect acoustically, but at the same time there's the visual aspect of having some distance between them (plus symmetry). With Everest and 4435 the distance between the drivers is pretty big. IIRC one of the 4435 woofers are crossed over @ 1khz while the the other comes in @ 100 Hz. If 2123 is incorporated 2226 will never see 1khz besides while rolling off, maybe 300-400 at most, so it may be a better idea to just run both in the same passband due to the low XO in the first place?

Because of miniDSP it will be fairly easy to try. The drivers will have a separate channel and be time aligned using REW and a calibrated Dayton EMM-6 mic using a soundcard with loopback connection to get correct timing information. Already have that measurement setup and an UMIK-1. Have not done a lot of gated measurements, so that's a hurdle that needs to be won. If the weather is good I can do it outside to get a bigger window.

Oh yes, this is a big undertaking for someone with my lack of knowledge and it's the first speaker build. At the same time that's part of the challenge and what makes it educational and fun. It may very well be that the sound sucks and I lose some hair over it, but that's OK as long as the project has been educational.

In the middle of the 4343 restoration and will begin this project once that's done. Was hoping to post some Sketchup drawings and see what you guys think and when the speakers are built I could post measurements and get some guidance on what to do/try given response, phase and so on. If it goes belly up, my 6 cats will have two great houses to play in.