So many times, so many ways, ad nauseam.............

[1audiohack]

That I can do. I will get back into it tonight and report.

[1audiohack]

Hi Thomas;

This is what I did with these 4312's to achieve the frequency response showed in white. In the sketch I showed the black input wire outside the crossover for clarity. In the crossover the black wire is simply connected to the plain yellow wire, the white wire with the black tracer and the plain green wire.

I hadn't followed this through the first time I had the boxes apart as the wires were polarized via male and female terminations and the drivers were not marked for polarity so what I missed was the fact that the midrange is wired reverse polarity from the factory and as tested.

The LE25-2's are polarity positive on the male spade of the tweeter. I measured this via impulse response and verified it with a 1.5V battery and a dial indicator on the dust cap. This only gives about 0.0045" cone movement for those curious folks who don't want to DC drive a tweeter that you can't replace. 9V? About 0.030"!

The LE5-12 (ferrite) is also positive on the male spade moves the cone outward on the mid, the LE5 AlNiCo polarity is positive to black moves the cone outward. Also verified by impulse and battery

As said before the 2213H is positive to black moves the cone outward and the Alnico 2212 is positive to red moves the cone outward so the woofers you just have to check.

All the best,
Barry.

[Wagner]

Hi Thomas;

This is what I did with these 4312's to achieve the frequency response showed in white. In the sketch I showed the black input wire outside the crossover for clarity. In the crossover the black wire is simply connected to the plain yellow wire, the white wire with the black tracer and the plain green wire.

I hadn't followed this through the first time I had the boxes apart as the wires were polarized via male and female terminations and the drivers were not marked for polarity so what I missed was the fact that the midrange is wired reverse polarity from the factory and as tested.

The LE25-2's are polarity positive on the male spade of the tweeter. I measured this via impulse response and verified it with a 1.5V battery and a dial indicator on the dust cap. This only gives about 0.0045" cone movement for those curious folks who don't want to DC drive a tweeter that you can't replace. 9V? About 0.030"!

The LE5-12 (ferrite) is also positive on the male spade moves the cone outward on the mid, the LE5 AlNiCo polarity is positive to black moves the cone outward. Also verified by impulse and battery

As said before the 2213H is positive to black moves the cone outward and the Alnico 2212 is positive to red moves the cone outward so the woofers you just have to check.

All the best,
Barry.

Thank you Barry!
So, if I am understanding what you you did, did you switch the connections at the the LE5? Or the LE25? Or both?
I have never contemplated the LE25's wiring connections on my pair as they are foolproof, male and female fastons, so I don't know for sure which way the cone moves on mine.

The problem (still) is that the wire COLORS are the source of the confusion.
Did you cut off or move fastons to preserve signal flow through the network and effect your experiment/measurements? I ask this as the later LE5 were the M/F faston types.

If I am reading this correctly, what you are are showing is the "stock" network with the "adjustments" made at the transducers. And then, best I can tell, the only change made was switching the LE5's hookup?

Your LE5s are playing out of phase with the woofers now, best I can tell, which JBL DID do with the early version and then changed it? (see the million posts and head scratching above!)
The LE5 is shown as receiving the POS signal (for outward movement) on every stinking L100 schematic I can find, regardless of woofer wiring/polarity.

I cannot find a hard confirmation that the early LE5-2 was a POS transducer or not, but all information would seem to indicate that it was POS (see below)

But don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with your results, just bewildered still.

As I already figured out, JBL finally got back on track with their wiring COLOR convention for the purposes of assembly, even when those colors didn't always correlate with the POS or NEG input signals.
Most notably, the BLACK (wire) to RED (transducer) switch eliminated at the woofer terminals (123A-3/2213H) as indicated with the 4311B forward.
AND the tweeter wiring. Although still wired "out of phase" the wire COLOR was the right one for the transducer's TERMINAL markings.

Since your LE5 is now an "innie" and your woofers are "outies" depending on wiring choice, your scheme appears to be a contradiction of the 4311B and the 4312 tech sheets and schematics.

With all these late versions, if the data is correct, the mid is always wired with POS (WHITE wire) signal to RED resulting in an outward cone movement, (REGARDLESS OF HOW HE WOOFER IS WIRED TO BEHAVE) and the tech sheets all indicate that it is a POS polarity transducer.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...The-LE5-Matrix

Big part of what continues to drive me crazy with this; it makes no sense, the back and forth between models. (models with the identical network)

I have no problem with this if it sounds better!

On my "transitional" N100s, the non conventional wire color switch was made on Lug#2 on the L-pad(s). As previously written and confirmed with a 100 photos, JBL soldered a BLACK wire to the #2 lug on the LE25's L-pad, instead of the RED or later on, the YELLOW. My drivers are all the old Alnico with the push connectors except for the tweeters.

So, does the BLACK INPUT wire on your boxes only connect with the network(s) at the #1 L-pad lug feed and the wire which ultimately makes it to the woofer?

[1audiohack]

Good morning Thomas;

The four 4312 I had here also have the fool proof fastons and all four are alike so like you I assume that they are the way JBL made them.

I did not dig into the crossover wiring at all since the two boxes I was able to complete had no cap or pot issues. I determined the black panel input connection path via an Ohm meter. Once that was established I determined the driver polarity to figure out which were wired forward or reverse. This then in my mind left the final question, the one that could not be readily answered via wire terminations being which way is the woofer supposed to be wired? This I answered, for myself anyway via the frequency response measurements.


[QUOTE] If I am reading this correctly, what you are showing is the "stock" network with the "adjustments" made at the transducers. And then, best I can tell, the only change made was switching the LE5's hookup? And still puzzled there as the LE5 is a NEG transducer (I thought) so the cone movement should be outward (if I am understanding what you have drawn)? [QUOTE]

I did not switch the tweeter or midrange connections in any way. The "white line" measurement was made with the woofer wired as an outie with positive voltage applied to the red rear panel connector. In the sketch the plain white wire coming from the crossover is fed from input positive and goes through the crossover to mid driver negative. This couldn't be mixed up with a ferrite version of the LE5 but could with the AlNiCo version as it has bare wire push connections. That is why I referenced this. At least now I (we?) know that the faston terminated drivers are forward with positive to the male spade.

[QUOTE] The problem (still) is that the wire COLORS are the source of the confusion. On my "transitional" N100s, the non conventional wire color switch was made on Lug#2 on the L-pad(s). As previously written and confirmed with a 100 photos, JBL soldered a BLACK wire to the #2 lug on the LE25's L-pad, instead of the RED or later on, the YELLOW.

So, does the BLACK INPUT wire on your boxes only connect with the network(s) at the #1 L-pad lug feed and the wire which ultimately makes it to the woofer? [QUOTE]

I cannot answer the above question beyond this: On the boxes here as wired and tested for the "white line" response, the black input terminal is electrically connected directly to the:

tweeter - female faston

mid + male faston

woof,,, which ever makes it go outward when the rear panel terminals are connected red to positive like the whole rest of the non JBL world considers normal! Grrrrrr.



I feel like I am doing a terrible job with this. I have been told that I am not good at explaining things. I will keep trying as long as you are patient with me.

Barry.

[Wagner]

[QUOTE=1audiohack;381897]Good morning Thomas;

The four 4312 I had here also have the fool proof fastons and all four are alike so like you I assume that they are the way JBL made them.

I did not dig into the crossover wiring at all since the two boxes I was able to complete had no cap or pot issues. I determined the black panel input connection path via an Ohm meter. Once that was established I determined the driver polarity to figure out which were wired forward or reverse. This then in my mind left the final question, the one that could not be readily answered via wire terminations being which way is the woofer supposed to be wired? This I answered, for myself anyway via the frequency response measurements.


[QUOTE] If I am reading this correctly, what you are showing is the "stock" network with the "adjustments" made at the transducers. And then, best I can tell, the only change made was switching the LE5's hookup? And still puzzled there as the LE5 is a NEG transducer (I thought) so the cone movement should be outward (if I am understanding what you have drawn)? [QUOTE]

I did not switch the tweeter or midrange connections in any way. The "white line" measurement was made with the woofer wired as an outie with positive voltage applied to the red rear panel connector. In the sketch the plain white wire coming from the crossover is fed from input positive and goes through the crossover to mid driver negative. This couldn't be mixed up with a ferrite version of the LE5 but could with the AlNiCo version as it has bare wire push connections. That is why I referenced this. At least now I (we?) know that the faston terminated drivers are forward with positive to the male spade.

[QUOTE] The problem (still) is that the wire COLORS are the source of the confusion. On my "transitional" N100s, the non conventional wire color switch was made on Lug#2 on the L-pad(s). As previously written and confirmed with a 100 photos, JBL soldered a BLACK wire to the #2 lug on the LE25's L-pad, instead of the RED or later on, the YELLOW.

So, does the BLACK INPUT wire on your boxes only connect with the network(s) at the #1 L-pad lug feed and the wire which ultimately makes it to the woofer?

I cannot answer the above question beyond this: On the boxes here as wired and tested for the "white line" response, the black input terminal is electrically connected directly to the:

tweeter - female faston

mid + male faston

woof,,, which ever makes it go outward when the rear panel terminals are connected red to positive like the whole rest of the non JBL world considers normal! Grrrrrr.



I feel like I am doing a terrible job with this. I have been told that I am not good at explaining things. I will keep trying as long as you are patient with me.

Barry.

You have done more than enough, thank you!
Don't worry over wasting anymore of your time.
I have corrected an error I made, which you used in a quote: I MIS-typed that the LE5 was a NEG transducer, not so, it is a POS transducer. My careless mistake for not proofreading.

As for your help? You have gone above and beyond.
I can't even get anyone here to take a ruler and measure where a foilcal needs to go for me..........................and YOU are running response curves and drawing mechanical diagrams.
Amazing.
(guess all the golden eared L100 expert bashers don't really even own a pair after all, let alone even heard a good pair since around 1975 )
Talk plenty of subjective bull shit, but when needed, can provide nothing actually useful.

For that, your gracuous efforts to help, I sincerely thank you.
But now we have the JBL wire color inconsistencies, the now verified wiring inconsistencies at the network solder lugs themselves (to facilitate assembly, where color not necessarily reflect signal input, but rather how the assembly line person needed to hook it up) and NOW we're going to stir in the faston equipped drivers polarity variable?

I can't cope with anymore variables unless I can see them (be in the same room with them)

Let's just stop here.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH! for what you have done to try and help me answer this question.
You are a very good man.
Sincere regards,
Thomas

[BMWCCA]

(guess all the golden eared L100 expert bashers don't really even own a pair after all, let alone even heard a good pair since around 1975 )
Talk plenty of subjective bull shit, but when needed, can provide nothing actually useful.

[1audiohack]

I understand your frustration, I really do. This very thing drove me to buying measurement equipment and taking classes that included travel to Texas and Chicago to attend.

If I have deepened the mystery rather than shed light, I am sorry.

In the end proper testing via measurement is the only way one knows for sure.

At my job we dyno test every single engine, transmission, V drive and differential we build. Validation is part of the culture here.

If you ever get to Las Vegas, throw those things in the trunk and look me up.

My best,
Barry.

[Wagner]

I understand your frustration, I really do. This very thing drove me to buying measurement equipment and taking classes that included travel to Texas and Chicago to attend.

If I have deepened the mystery rather than shed light, I am sorry.

In the end proper testing via measurement is the only way one knows for sure.

At my job we dyno test every single engine, transmission, V drive and differential we build. Validation is part of the culture here.

If you ever get to Las Vegas, throw those things in the trunk and look me up.

My best,
Barry.

Please do not say that! You have been VERY kind and VERY generous with your time.
It is not your fault that there are so many variables with regard to something that should be so so simple.

Who do you build engine and drivetrains with? You know, that was my trade.

Thanks again Barry,
Thomas

[1audiohack]

Haha no surprise! People who are truly interested in performance anything are usually interested somewhat in all things performance, like audio.

We have our own little shop here at the Vegas Motor Speedway, it's called Gearworks Inc. We are joined at the hip with Kroyer Racing Engines right across the street in a handshake deal that in cooperation we create total powertrain packages.

Come see us if you get out this way.

Barry.

[Wagner]

Haha no surprise! People who are truly interested in performance anything are usually interested somewhat in all things performance, like audio.

We have our own little shop here at the Vegas Motor Speedway, it's called Gearworks Inc. We are joined at the hip with Kroyer Racing Engines right across the street in a handshake deal that in cooperation we create total powertrain packages.

Come see us if you get out this way.

Barry.

So, you do just the final drive or any of the CV/shaft(s) or transmission(s) type work as well?
I went to the Kroyer site; was nice to see that someone still recognizes the TH400 as probably the best that's ever been (with the possible exception of some BorgWarners, MAYBE)

Where do you source your cores? Especially the short shaft?

Whats y'all emphasis on GM, FORD? Whatever? What's your favorite?

[1audiohack]

I haven't looked on the KRE site for some time, I'm in there every day. The last pictures I remember taking for either of our websites were of a GM case 400. We used to buy the HD cases frome a core company in Chicago about 65-70 at a time. About 2/3 of them would make it through tear down and by the time they got all the way through clean and CNC prep for speed and fluid level sensors, upgraded band anchors and such only about 1/3 would be useful. It was kindof sad how much of them we would just recycle. We would do that about three times a year. All we would use were the cases, pump cover assemblies, valve bodies which we converted to manual shift and some of the hardware.

We bought new pump bodies and gears from GM and literally make all the rest, the drums from billet steel, the shafts from Aermet and the planet sets are customs with alternate ratios (1.95 - 2.98 first gear) and for the last several years we have been using Reid Racing aftermarket cases that we were fortunate to have been involved in the design phase of and got nearly everything we wanted in them.

We saved all the short output shafts but they are not strong enough for what we put them through so we made them as well. We use prostock flange axle forgings from Strange Engineering for the blanks.

Personally I am a GM guy and have done contract work with GM racing on and off for years. I do like Cleavor Fords though. We build 8 stack billet head billet block 900 HP Fords that are just so kick ass in every way, no matter what brand you gravitate to, you couldn't call yourself a car guy if these didn't knock you out.

GW does everything between the flywheel and the brakes. You can get a glimps of what we do at, gearworksinc.com. We need to add a ton of content to our site. None of the trans stuff is on it, not even any of our high pinion Ford diff stuff either. We make billet T400 extension housings and yokes and all kinds of cool stuff that should be on there.