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Thread: So many times, so many ways, ad nauseam.............

  1. #16
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    before LHF , when confronted with this issue, my rule of thumb was ... any color that contained any black went to the BLACK terminal , whatever was left went to RED.

    don't recall ever having any problems with that ..
    “If you think that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard,
    just wait a couple minutes!”

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    before LHF , when confronted with this issue, my rule of thumb was ... any color that contained any black went to the BLACK terminal , whatever was left went to RED.

    don't recall ever having any problems with that ..
    You're right, and that will surely work
    You've just described their "most of the time" standard wiring convention
    It's just the positive versus negative traducer thing that's the rub with this one and it only became an issue in my mind after reading about it in about 100 threads
    That late production model L100As using the 123A-3 were to be treated differently
    My issue is that even though I've seen it written a million times I've yet to find definitive proof that that is in fact the case (except for "4313B"'s data reference sheet)
    Doesn't anyone with a pair of L100s with a serial number above 206723 A have the manual that actually came with their speakers?

    Hard to believe that almost everyone relies on that one edition that's everywhere considering about a bazillion pairs of L100s were sold over the years; I've searched for a final edition copy to buy but can't find one through the usual outlets (or a copy of the owner's manual for the original vertical version)

  3. #18
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post

    Hard to believe that almost everyone relies on that one edition that's everywhere considering about a bazillion pairs of L100s were sold over the years;
    1969 – L-100, a consumer version of the 4311 is launched – this would sell over 125,000 pairs in the 70s

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBL
    “If you think that’s the dumbest thing you’ve ever heard,
    just wait a couple minutes!”

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    1969 – L-100, a consumer version of the 4311 is launched – this would sell over 125,000 pairs in the 70s

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JBL
    I think it's Pappy was actually the 4310 and the L100 debuted at the 1970 Chicago CES...regardless, and nitpicking aside, where in the hell are all of the various incarnations of the damn owner's manuals?

  5. #20
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Apparently my L100s are earlier versions so so can't help there. I'll suggest again that I think you should go green to the positive woofer terminal, but I know you want some type of definitive documentation.


    Widget

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Apparently my L100s are earlier versions so so can't help there. I'll suggest again that I think you should go green to the positive woofer terminal, but I know you want some type of definitive documentation.


    Widget
    Thank you Mr. Widget for your efforts
    All I want is for them to be correctly connected
    The only reason I even have the question is that there are at least 10 threads here on the specific topic and none of them offer a definitive answer as well as the fact that they at times conflict along with the "chart"
    (and of course I can't find any of them right at the moment)
    I have also read the statement, made by a well respected and knowledgeable member here that ALL L100s should be "outies"

    If I put these back together Green wire to Red terminal then I'm going to have a pair of "innies"

    I just finished applying my last coat of lacquer on the front baffles today...............when I put these back together I want them to be factory correct and hopefully back together for the last time (at least for what's left of my lifetime) and negating the need for touch ups

    I am not obsessing (at least I don't think I am); I just find it incredibly frustrating that I cannot find a definitive answer

  7. #22
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    Last comment and then I'll just have to go with something:
    It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is a NEGATIVE transducer and on the L100A (late model) that I am working with, it is wired observing "convention"; WHITE to RED terminal (on the driver) and BLACK to BLACK (which is in fact system input NEG (BLACK) and correlates with the schematic as well as the box

    Wired as indicated by the schematic and JBL color convention, the LE5-2 will behave as is expected, as an "innie"

    This would put it out of phase with a woofer we are wiring to be an "outie", but more importantly than that, running wide open with a full content signal
    By doing this, aren't we introducing cancellation problems?
    There has to be some overlap between those two drivers

    To further complicate matters, the long assumed "out of phase" LE25, with the BLACK wire coming off the L-pad and terminating at the tweeter with the female faston on the end of the BLACK wire is in fact carrying the positive half of the signal............if you check one of these LE25s you will see that they have reversed their own wiring convention here, color wise and the LE25 is in fact behaving as an "outie"

    If we assume that reversing the color codes at the woofer to get "outie" behavior and obviously hook up the tweeter with the factory fastons (which agree 100% with the schematic) then it's the MID that's out of phase with the rest of the system....................and I don't get it
    Maybe I'm too ignorant (which IS true) or maybe this is why L100s sound like shit to so many..............they've been wired incorrectly for 40+ years?

    OR, is the LE5-2 180 degrees out of absolute polarity by design? (I told you/admitted I was ignorant)

  8. #23
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    I had a similar issue with my 4341 4 way monitors. The original crossover had been hacked and I wanted to get it right.
    Bo putnam told me that the correct function was to have the woofer 'reverse polarity" connected - I believe that effected a sharper cutoff on the crossover between drivers it and the mid-bass driver. I gather it was done on a number of other models for that same effect.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    Last comment and then I'll just have to go with something:
    It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is a NEGATIVE transducer and on the L100A (late model) that I am working with, it is wired observing "convention"; WHITE to RED terminal (on the driver) and BLACK to BLACK (which is in fact system input NEG (BLACK) and correlates with the schematic as well as the box

    Wired as indicated by the schematic and JBL color convention, the LE5-2 will behave as is expected, as an "innie"

    This would put it out of phase with a woofer we are wiring to be an "outie", but more importantly than that, running wide open with a full content signal
    By doing this, aren't we introducing cancellation problems?
    There has to be some overlap between those two drivers

    To further complicate matters, the long assumed "out of phase" LE25, with the BLACK wire coming off the L-pad and terminating at the tweeter with the female faston on the end of the BLACK wire is in fact carrying the positive half of the signal............if you check one of these LE25s you will see that they have reversed their own wiring convention here, color wise and the LE25 is in fact behaving as an "outie"

    If we assume that reversing the color codes at the woofer to get "outie" behavior and obviously hook up the tweeter with the factory fastons (which agree 100% with the schematic) then it's the MID that's out of phase with the rest of the system....................and I don't get it
    Maybe I'm too ignorant (which IS true) or maybe this is why L100s sound like shit to so many..............they've been wired incorrectly for 40+ years?

    OR, is the LE5-2 180 degrees out of absolute polarity by design? (I told you/admitted I was ignorant)
    2ch: Oppo, JoLida 502CRC, JBL L212, 18ti,240ti; Heath AS101, Von Schweikert VR4
    7.1: Oppo BDP103D, B&K, UREI 809A, JBL B460

  9. #24
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is....
    It is not uncommon at all for midrange drivers or tweeters to be wired "out of phase" in systems from all manufacturers. It is done sometimes because in these systems there is better overall integration near the crossover and this is more audible than having the rest of the bandpass in phase.


    Widget

  10. #25
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    L100A Late Model polarity

    I'm running up against the same with a recently acquired pair of what I think are L100A Late Model with the puzzling problem of how to connect 2 different LF Drivers, one is 123A-1 (pos Pol.) the other is what i assume is the original 123A-3 (neg Pol.). When I pulled them out to see what I had I found that both black leads were connected to black speaker posts.
    My question to the members here who are in the know; can I just simply connect both woofers and test to see that the polarity matches, meaning that both speakers move in the same direction? Does it matter which direction it moves?
    thanks for any help here. BTW, its not important for me to know WHY they work the way they do when connected correctly. It is important to know HOW to connect them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    Last comment and then I'll just have to go with something:
    It puzzles me a great deal that the LE5-2 is a NEGATIVE transducer and on the L100A (late model) that I am working with, it is wired observing "convention"; WHITE to RED terminal (on the driver) and BLACK to BLACK (which is in fact system input NEG (BLACK) and correlates with the schematic as well as the box

    Wired as indicated by the schematic and JBL color convention, the LE5-2 will behave as is expected, as an "innie"

    This would put it out of phase with a woofer we are wiring to be an "outie", but more importantly than that, running wide open with a full content signal
    By doing this, aren't we introducing cancellation problems?
    There has to be some overlap between those two drivers

    To further complicate matters, the long assumed "out of phase" LE25, with the BLACK wire coming off the L-pad and terminating at the tweeter with the female faston on the end of the BLACK wire is in fact carrying the positive half of the signal............if you check one of these LE25s you will see that they have reversed their own wiring convention here, color wise and the LE25 is in fact behaving as an "outie"

    If we assume that reversing the color codes at the woofer to get "outie" behavior and obviously hook up the tweeter with the factory fastons (which agree 100% with the schematic) then it's the MID that's out of phase with the rest of the system....................and I don't get it
    Maybe I'm too ignorant (which IS true) or maybe this is why L100s sound like shit to so many..............they've been wired incorrectly for 40+ years?

    OR, is the LE5-2 180 degrees out of absolute polarity by design? (I told you/admitted I was ignorant)

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonester View Post
    I'm running up against the same with a recently acquired pair of what I think are L100A Late Model with the puzzling problem of how to connect 2 different LF Drivers, one is 123A-1 (pos Pol.) the other is what i assume is the original 123A-3 (neg Pol.). When I pulled them out to see what I had I found that both black leads were connected to black speaker posts.
    My question to the members here who are in the know; can I just simply connect both woofers and test to see that the polarity matches, meaning that both speakers move in the same direction? Does it matter which direction it moves?
    thanks for any help here. BTW, its not important for me to know WHY they work the way they do when connected correctly. It is important to know HOW to connect them.
    Both systems (woofers) need to behave the same to sound correct
    I finally settled on the "outie" version for my pair
    So, attach the GREEN wire to the BLACK terminal on the 123A-3 and attach the Green wire to the RED terminal on your 123A-1
    They both should behave as "outies" this way if everything else in the box is as it should be; check with a 1.5 volt battery before you button everything all back up (check from the cabinet input terminals)

    If for some reason you want your woofers to behave as "innies" simply reverse the above

    I finally found several of the ancient threads with a great deal of input from Evan and others and that along with "4313B"'s very helpful chart, convinced me to go with and "outie" system for the late model

    I have yet to find an owner's manual SPECIFIC to my late model/serial number pair, but I did find the GREEN to BLACK for the 123A-3 in enough places to figure it was the safe and correct bet (that the late model L100 should be an "outie" woofer player)

  12. #27
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    Thank you for the clarification. I will test to get the polarity to push and connect the drivers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    Both systems (woofers) need to behave the same to sound correct
    I finally settled on the "outie" version for my pair
    So, attach the GREEN wire to the BLACK terminal on the 123A-3 and attach the Green wire to the RED terminal on your 123A-1
    They both should behave as "outies" this way if everything else in the box is as it should be; check with a 1.5 volt battery before you button everything all back up (check from the cabinet input terminals)

    If for some reason you want your woofers to behave as "innies" simply reverse the above

    I finally found several of the ancient threads with a great deal of input from Evan and others and that along with "4313B"'s very helpful chart, convinced me to go with and "outie" system for the late model

    I have yet to find an owner's manual SPECIFIC to my late model/serial number pair, but I did find the GREEN to BLACK for the 123A-3 in enough places to figure it was the safe and correct bet (that the late model L100 should be an "outie" woofer player)

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Apparently my L100s are earlier versions so so can't help there. I'll suggest again that I think you should go green to the positive woofer terminal, but I know you want some type of definitive documentation.


    Widget
    Time flies when you're having fun:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...nvention/page3

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...31-Woofer-diff

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...A-is-incorrect

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...A-3-connection

  14. #29
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    outs and ins

    I found another 123A-3 neg polarity speaker to match my other 123A-3. Should they be connected black wire to red post to keep them in correct phase with midrange? It appears that late L100A are supposed to be black to red post looking at schematic, irregardless of polarity direction.

  15. #30
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    I would think so. There's so much audible overlap between the drivers
    with such a low slope crossover that I'd think you would want them to
    be acoustically in phase... irregardless.

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