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Thread: Dayton Polypropylene Capacitors - 1% versus 5%

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    Dayton Polypropylene Capacitors - 1% versus 5%

    I was going to go with the 1% variety until I started seeing the shopping cart total add up

    Is it worth the extra money (fairly substantial, on some values nearly double) to go with their 1% line versus the 5% versions in a "standard" network refresh? I have read more than a view times that the tolerances were excellent with their 5%ers..........so

    Also, I have several speakers in-line for a re-cap (so this will be a fairly good sized order), one pair being L100s; the value called for is an 8uF but Dayton only comes in an 8.2uF; I will be by-passing with .01uF film and foils

    Given the working tolerances allowed by the JBL originals, is there even a remote possibility I could hear the .2uF difference?

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    Senior Member gferrell's Avatar
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    Good question, I have a situation where I am wondering the same. Maybe one of the experts (which LH has many) will chime in.
    XPL 200's, XPL 160's, XPL 140's, L7's, L5's, L3's, L1's Homemade L Center, 4412's, 4406, L60T's, L20T's

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    If they match (left/right pairings), I'd be -extremely- surprised if you could hear the difference. You can always -make- them match if you measure and have smaller values to add (in parallel). If the tolerance is on the high side of nominal, just match the l/r schematic buddies as best you can.

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    If these were precision, high order filters, one might choose to bin parts by tolerance that were complementary in realizing the filter function (KEF) or hand tweak individual components to accomplish
    much the same thing (Revel)... but they're not. The filter shapes are not particularly sensitive to component tolerance.

    later, more complicated, high-Q notch filters, 24dB/oct slopes, underdamped bass high pass filters are less "tolerant" of sloppy part values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    If they match (left/right pairings), I'd be -extremely- surprised if you could hear the difference. You can always -make- them match if you measure and have smaller values to add (in parallel). If the tolerance is on the high side of nominal, just match the l/r schematic buddies as best you can.
    Yes, understood, thank you

    Every stock JBL network I have ever owned or serviced used 5% film types, I've had a couple as high as 10%, so I figured the 5% 8.2uF Daytons, falling well within the margin of error indicated by the originals, theoretically shouldn't sound any different (not straying from design criteria far enough to do harm at least) even if they do measure spot on at 8.2uF; well within the allowable tolerance allowed for by JBL on this particular "network" (L100 )................but still, I have never "upped" any values deliberately, so I don't know if there's any aural consequences to fret over (that I could actually hear)

    I thought about paralleling them to get exactly 8uF but the problem then is how many caps will I have to order and sort through to get an exact number that might not matter in the first place, ergo my inquiry to those who know a lot more about this than I do
    Plus, on a couple of these projects I have some space concerns
    I do want as good a symmetry as possible and I feel pretty good about that as almost every Dayton cap I have ever installed (the standard 5% ones) has measured almost spot on to what the label said it should be...............so

    What's funny is (and what really inspired my question in the first place besides cost) is that Parts Express currently only carries one 8uF cap period, they are all 8.2uF now (from all the usual suspects)?
    What's up with that? The only 8uF they (P.E.) currently have is a 10% 200V Kimber, "on sale" for only $27.59, down from ONLY $30.32 and they only have ONE left in stock

    I know I could find "even eights" if I just absolutely had too, but I ain't gonna do it (multiple orders/vendors) None of these projects are "desert island" candidates

    I would be interested on any thoughts as to why 8uF is seemingly becoming a not so standard value?
    http://www.parts-express.com/cat/met...%5D&PortalID=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    If these were precision, high order filters, one might choose to bin parts by tolerance that were complementary in realizing the filter function (KEF) or hand tweak individual components to accomplish
    much the same thing (Revel)... but they're not. The filter shapes are not particularly sensitive to component tolerance.

    later, more complicated, high-Q notch filters, 24dB/oct slopes, underdamped bass high pass filters are less "tolerant" of sloppy part values.
    I was typing when you posted this

    As I suspected might be the case (but as I have freely admitted, I wouldn't "know" with any confidence)

    So, save $40 bucks and go with the 5%ers it is then (although I am going to match them as well as is possible)

    Thank you Sir

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    Thank you again; I am assuming this article was intended to address my why 8.2uF rather the 8uF query?

    Makes perfect sense if it is, but I seem to remember being able to readily source the "even eights" all the time, as well as coming across them in in boxes fairly frequently

    It was the fractional value caps that were a pain in the ass to find; especially when almost everything was an electrolytic

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    That was all. Figured others might be interested as well.
    I have no hard facts or explanation re the whole number value drop
    you've noticed.
    Not a drop, rather a small addition: 8.2uF seems to be the "norm" now (much more common) rather than just a simple 8uF
    Just seemed odd to me as .2 is such a small amount to have to wrap/control, especially when dealing with the "precision" values like the 1 and 2%ers
    And with 5 and 10% caps at larger values, what difference would it make? (.2uf)...............UNLESS a lot of caps people think are"special (and paying a lot of money for) are actually coming off the same machines, only wrapped in a different color tape and branded with a different name/logo?
    Just a theory

    It has bee a persistent rumor I have heard and read more than a few times that the caps B&W uses are nothing more than re-branded (labeled) Daytons (Bennics):

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    I'd also be interested to know if anyone has determined if there is a consistent way, sans 'scope, to determine which end of a Dayton is the outside foil lead? Or are the labels too inconsistent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    Is it worth the extra money (fairly substantial, on some values nearly double) to go with their 1% line versus the 5% versions in a "standard" network refresh?
    All of the several dozen Dayton metalized poly caps I've had in my hands measured exactly as printed on the label. It didn't matter if they were 1% or 5%. As a result, I no longer buy the 1% caps.

    I'd guess that the only difference between those two types is the 1% caps were inspected and determined to be within 1% of the printed value, and the 5% caps were not inspected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    Also, I have several speakers in-line for a re-cap (so this will be a fairly good sized order), one pair being L100s; the value called for is an 8uF but Dayton only comes in an 8.2uF; I will be by-passing with .01uF film and foils.
    Go ahead and use the 8.2 F cap. A general rule of thumb in DIY speaker building has it that as long as a cap, inductor, or resistor is within 10% of the value shown in a schematic, it will work fine in the speaker. 8.2 F 10% is anywhere between 7.4 and 9 F.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    Given the working tolerances allowed by the JBL originals, is there even a remote possibility I could hear the .2uF difference?
    In the L100, where a single 8 F cap is used as a high-pass filter for the mid range, I am certain you won't hear a difference between 8 and 8.2 F.

    However, if you replace the original L100 crossover with this http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ign-for-L-100A, you will definitely hear a difference .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swerd View Post
    All of the several dozen Dayton metalized poly caps I've had in my hands measured exactly as printed on the label. It didn't matter if they were 1% or 5%. As a result, I no longer buy the 1% caps.

    I'd guess that the only difference between those two types is the 1% caps were inspected and determined to be within 1% of the printed value, and the 5% caps were not inspected.

    Go ahead and use the 8.2 F cap. A general rule of thumb in DIY speaker building has it that as long as a cap, inductor, or resistor is within 10% of the value shown in a schematic, it will work fine in the speaker. 8.2 F 10% is anywhere between 7.4 and 9 F.

    In the L100, where a single 8 F cap is used as a high-pass filter for the mid range, I am certain you won't hear a difference between 8 and 8.2 F.

    However, if you replace the original L100 crossover with this http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ign-for-L-100A, you will definitely hear a difference .
    Thank you very much for the kind reply!

    Actually, I have considered your network for some time now; my plan is to refresh these stock "networks" first in order to have a good idea of overall driver health and balance (output wise) before proceeding with constructing a true crossover; a fresh baseline with known good caps, well scrubbed and tested pots, not just pissed on with a squirt of DeOxit (I have yet to remove my foilcals) and fresh solder My pair, cosmetic restoration notwithstanding, is exactly as received and everything about it is at least 40 years old

    (I have no ability or equipment with which to test and check transducers individually) I am a "model builder" and restorer (physical) if that makes sense

    My particular pair is in excellent condition and all the drivers do work

    What I would really love to know someday is just which wire goes to which connector on my 123A-3s! I've read every thread (JBL's unconventional convention, which I understand), seen, and have several copies of, the famous "cheat sheet" (is it an innie or outie) a dozen copies of the "owner's manual" which does not ultimately answer the question (issue of the different versions) but still have never known with certainty because the damn JBL Tech Sheets never indicate which "pos" they are talking about
    (a few exceptions, and on other models, but of course NOT the L100's drivers with the exception of those using fastons); the literature is never consistent or clear, "pos" the COLOR red? or "pos" as per "outie" convention?......... the color red capped spring terminal on the woofer itself or the "pos" terminal ("true" positive) that makes the cone go outwards with the application of the positive end of a 1 1/2V battery!

    AND the phase thing/relationship with the mid-range (my LE5-2s have the spring type connectors as well) whenever these more advanced network discussions come up.............but I digress, my apologies!
    (I'm just not 100% certain if I've ever heard them as they were intended to sound, good, bad or indifferent) My pair had been into at some point in it's life and I think mistakes were made putting them back together
    I have straightened things out the best I could based on the tech sheets and the "cheat sheet"; they at least match Left to Right

    But anyway, yes, I plan on building your crossover if I live long enough (not kidding there) I would like it very much to improve upon the "qualities" these old boys possess yet still have them to admire (I think the L100 is definitely a beautiful old iconic design visually if nothing else) I absolutely agree there is plenty of room for improvement

    Interestingly though, as they are now, on certain recordings they are spooky good but for the most part they are unbearable for any length of time

    One of the reasons it's so hard to just get rid of them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    ... 8.2uF seems to be the "norm" now (much more common) rather than just a simple 8uF
    Just seemed odd to me as .2 is such a small amount to have to wrap/control, especially when dealing with the "precision" values like the 1 and 2%ers
    And with 5 and 10% caps at larger values, what difference would it make? (.2uf)...............UNLESS a lot of caps people think are"special (and paying a lot of money for) are actually coming off the same machines, only wrapped in a different color tape and branded with a different name/logo?
    It is the norm, or rather the preferred way. Under the E12 scheme, any desired value between 1 and 10 is within 10% of an E12 series number. There's also a geometric series relation.

    I suspect evenly numbered caps are all initially manufactured to preferred numbers and get relabeled as even numbers when they don't meet the target spec.
    I control the treble.
    I control the bass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    I have no ability or equipment with which to test and check transducers individually. I am a "model builder" and restorer (physical) if that makes sense.

    My particular pair is in excellent condition and all the drivers do work.

    Interestingly though, as they are now, on certain recordings they are spooky good but for the most part they are unbearable for any length of time.

    One of the reasons it's so hard to just get rid of them
    From reading this (especially the part I put in bold), it sounds to me like you are ready for the new crossover. Before I built mine, I had very much the same opinion as you.

    For what its worth, when I took my L100s to Dennis Murphy for his crossover re-design, I brought both speakers. He said he only needed one, and I took the other home. He went on and did all his measurements and work with only one speaker. When I built the crossovers, I made two identical boards, and assumed that design would work in both speakers. That thinking did work, and since then I have built or helped build crossovers for several other L100 owners. In none of them did we think the new crossover didn't succeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wagner View Post
    Actually, I have considered your network for some time now; my plan is to refresh these stock "networks" first in order to have a good idea of overall driver health and balance (output wise) before proceeding with constructing a true crossover; a fresh baseline with known good caps, well scrubbed and tested pots, not just pissed on with a squirt of DeOxit (I have yet to remove my foilcals) and fresh solder My pair, cosmetic restoration notwithstanding, is exactly as received and everything about it is at least 40 years old.
    Back when I first did my speakers, I installed a new crossover board in one speaker and compared it directly to my other unmodified speaker. I was very easy to decide which was better. If I recall it took about 5-10 seconds of listening . I never removed the old crossovers I kept them in place as they were originally installed. All I did was by-pass them as I wired the new board.

    If you are close enough to Gaithersburg, MD, and want to hear mine, let me know. I still have them, even though they rarely get used.

    I don't recall what the original caps looked like. Were they cheap non-polar electrolytic caps or somewhat better construction such as metalized film? They seemed to work in the sense that they had not failed. I wouldn't spend much effort being concerned about recapping. The crossover design was the problem, not the nature of the caps.

    Someone went to the effort of keeping both old and new crossovers in his L100. I believe he posted it here as well as on Audioholics. He constructed an elaborately wired switching system so he could toggle back and forth. Later, he admitted he never using the old crossovers, and the new ones sounded much better.

    Now to your concerns about which wire goes to which driver terminal. I assumed I didn't know what each drivers' polarity was. It was easy enough to find out with some AA batteries with ~6" wires taped to each end.

    When I installed the new boards, I first removed the woofer and disconnected the wires from it. It had reasonably good built-in spring-loaded disconnects. When I tested the polarity of those woofers, I did it directly on their terminals.

    The mid range driver and tweeter were separated from the rest of the inside of the cabinet, by mounting them on closed cylinders made from heavy cardboard. I didn't remove them from those cylinders, so I never saw the terminals on the back of those drivers. They each had two wires emerging from the back of the cylinders. I don't remember the colors of those wires, but at the time I wrote it down. I cut those wires (leaving 6-8" to work with), tested the polarity of those two wires with the battery, and continued with installing the new board.

    Because I never saw the actual terminals on those drivers, I made a mistake when I drew the original crossover schematic diagram. My drawing shows the mid range driver wired with the same polarity as the woofer and tweeter. It should show the mid range in opposite polarity to the woofer and tweeter. However, the new crossover diagram is drawn correctly, all 3 drivers should be wired in the same polarity. Please don't be confused by that.

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