Decoupling turntables from floor vibrations

[Lee in Montreal]

Here's the lastest development. I'm quite happy on all aspects.

The base hasn't changed. Only the eights posts have been shortened by more than half.



The subframe can now easily be fitted.



No particular skills required. Just hook the rubberbands.



Install the turntable on the subframe. You can use the original rubber feet.







You can also lower the turntable by removing the rubber feet.



And install spacers and bolts between the subframe and the turntable. Sorry for the blurred picture.



And voilà...



The turntable is barely 1/2" (13mm) higher than stock.

[Lee in Montreal]

I could therefore shorten the posts by another 1/2" and the turntable would be at the exact stock height. Actually, if using only one rubberband instead of two, then the tiurntable lowers to stock height. And with the suspension being softer than with two rubberbands, it also lowers the frequency of resonance of the suspension. Now, as for using cheap rubberbands instead of classy viton O-rings, I will leave it to everyone to upgrade the suspension. DJs won't care ;-)





Thanks very much for your attention ;-)

[SEAWOLF97]

that pup is getting nicer on each iteration

you're going to have a marketable product pretty soon.

when does the line start ??

[Lee in Montreal]

Now, with only one rubberband per corner.







So. The dilemma is simple. With or without the original feet? If keeping the feet, then the subframe needs to be as shown above. One big costly craddle. If removing the feet, then the craddle can be replaced by four corners only, which greatly reduces production costs. At that point, more testing is needed to see if there's no adverse effect when removing the rubber feet.

[Lee in Montreal]

that pup is getting nicer on each iteration

you're going to have a marketable product pretty soon.

when does the line start ??

Thanks for the good word. I will test a pair myself and have a friend test another. Once my own testing is done, I will lend my own set to a record shop I know that has resonance problems when people walk near the turntables. Having the set displayed and tested in a well frequented record shop could help test the market and offer visibility. Then, I also need to consider how much it cost to produce, say, 50 units. Is it worth it? How much will people pay? Am I going to work for free, or even lose money? Then, what about making kits for other turntables, or maybe a universal non-SL1200 kit? Maybe if I wamt to be rich, I should produce expensive and esoteric interconnects instead... ;-)

One more feature I would like to add is the capacity to adjust the height of each corner, where rubberbands are hooked. Most likely for people who have an non-flat resting surface. I was thinking aluminum shims.

Turntables and vinyl are now very hip. So, maybe people will spend more than I think, just to farkle their turntable and impress their neighboor. ;-)

[SEAWOLF97]

well, Portland (where I am) has the highest number of record stores per capita in the USA , sooo .... an ideal place to have a beta tester. I know a volunteer here (you do too .. hint,hint )

[Lee in Montreal]

well, Portland (where I am) has the highest number of record stores per capita in the USA , sooo .... an ideal place to have a beta tester. I know a volunteer here (you do too .. hint,hint )

Do you have a record shop? ;-)

Lee

[Wagner]

Thanks for the good word. I will test a pair myself and have a friend test another. Once my own testing is done, I will lend my own set to a record shop I know that has resonance problems when people walk near the turntables. Having the set displayed and tested in a well frequented record shop could help test the market and offer visibility. Then, I also need to consider how much it cost to produce, say, 50 units. Is it worth it? How much will people pay? Am I going to work for free, or even lose money? Then, what about making kits for other turntables, or maybe a universal non-SL1200 kit? Maybe if I wamt to be rich, I should produce expensive and esoteric interconnects instead... ;-)

One more feature I would like to add is the capacity to adjust the height of each corner, where rubberbands are hooked. Most likely for people who have an non-flat resting surface. I was thinking aluminum shims.

Turntables and vinyl are now very hip. So, maybe people will spend more than I think, just to farkle their turntable and impress their neighboor. ;-)

Beautiful work friend; better yet, very ingenious solution

BUT, I would strongly suggest that you register a patient or some sort of "copy right" to protect yourself before you post too many more photos

That is how good I think this idea is; protect yourself (and I have been looking at turntable accessories/mods for a LONG time and have never seen anything like it) You've got a potential winner on your hands

Don't know how it works while you are still prototyping, but there are more than a few guys selling these sort of precision aftermarket metal bits, and have more than enough equipment to pull it off (take a look at all the sub-platter/drive pulley/counter weight/end stub guys there are out there selling these for the REGAs..........and all seem to be doing pretty damn good) Meaning: RIP YOU OFF

A suggestion? The table to target for this is/are the millions of REGAs out there; and NOBODY loves buying new metal upgrade bits for their tables more than REGA owners

Cut this for a REGA's dimensions and post it over at Steve Hoffman's site and you'd sell 500 of them in 6 months time (and that's just to the early adopters)

Only thing I don't like is the rubber bands part ("breakability"); the very practical flexibility to use an almost universal inventory of bands is a plus except for the fact that as of the past 10 years or so, rubber bands, like wood clothes pins are all shit (china china)

They all seem to break and turn sticky after only a few months nowadays (but I realize this is a prototype/in development stage item right now; "rubber bands" may not be the penultimate solution for the suspension)

Nice work and good luck; I think the idea is great

[Lee in Montreal]

Copyright and patents. Those are very expensive and so easy to go around. If somebody copies the design and changes a single bolt, and extends a measure by a millimter, the copyright doesn't hold anymore. The way around for a designer is to have a strong identity on a product. or make sure everyone understand he was the originator. That can be done thru branding and forum presence. I have already designed several dozen of auromotive-related products that I sell around the world. Ot doid happen that a couple of them got copied, but none sold very well because people knew they were copies and that the original one was mine. Not to mention that copies didn't work as well, or didn,T look as good as the original... ;-)

Nonetheless, your comment about Rega owner being keen to farkle their turntable is interisting. I was initially aiming at the DJs and vinyl collectors using SL 1200 Technics, but after a test I did yesterday, an imprevisible outcome came out. Let me explain.

My good old friend Denis was the first beta tester. I brought a flat-packed set and he assembled it himself. It was easy at that stage and my frienf DEnis is not necessarely technically gifted ;-). Then we installed it and we tested how isolated the TT was from the shelf. It was very conclusive. And we had two TTs to test. One with and another without the suspension. Then, my buddy told me he had the impression that the bass sounded better on the suspended TT. Honestly, I didn't notice it. I explained to him about placebo effects and psycho-acoustics. But he was a firm believer that the suspension improved the sound. Meh... I will let him believe this. I remember laughing, decades ago, when people were suspensding or fitting isolation cones under their CD player... To me it was oil snake. But maybe suspending a TT or a CD player improves the sound. And maybe that suspension kit can be used on a CD player too. But unless I can have data on that, I can hardly commit to support that pretention. My goal being to solve a real problem, nit just pretend and sell kits. I hate grey zones. ;-)

Gonna bring a demo kit on Saturday to that record store. I'll see what happens.

In regard of the Rega market, I sure am interested. If anyone can give me some info about dimensions, weight, how feet are distributed under the TT, etc. I suspect that at a mere 4.5kg weight (10lbs), the turntable must catch any vibration form the air ;-) Do people fill them with Play Doh to add mass?

And as for the rubberbands, I am 100% with all the comments mentionning how better a black suspension, using dedicated toroidal rings would be. But, I haven't found them yet. For sure they would be an improvement, at least visually.

[Lee in Montreal]

The next test I will be performing this weekend will be to place a turntable/suspension on a 12cft bass cabinet w/ JBL 2245 woofer playing only under 40Hz and powered by a bridged Yamaha PC2002 power amp. That cabinet sure generates vibrations on its surfaces. I will test how good at isolating the Technics from the surface vibrations that suspension is.

Lee

[macaroonie]

The Rega plinth used to be plain old particle board , nowadays it is likely to be MDF. No significant voids in it.

Dimensions: 17.5" (450mm) W by 4.5" (115mm) H by 14" (360mm) D (height includes dustcover, feet). ( Planar 3 )

As far as I can remember it has 3 feet , two at the front one central at the back. Not very compliant rubber.

This is a turntable that surely needs a helping hand. Wagner is bang on .

[Lee in Montreal]

The width of the Rega is exactly the same as the Sl1200 Mk2. The Sl1200 is just not as deep at 350mm. And obviously the location of the feet is different. I will see if I can find somebody local on which I can measure the mounting location of the three feet. Also, I grabbed some Nitrile o-rings this morning, made by Spaenaur. Sure they look good. But they don't offer the same compliance as the rubberbands. Compliance is what filters vibrations and oscilations ;-) They also don't filter as well as rubberbands. I shall get some new design mounting pods tomorrow. 1/2" shorter and a different design to "catch" the rubberband. No more bolt on top. I will update the set I lent to my friend with those. The pair that will be lent to the local record shop will have the updated posts too. I will also leave the four 6mm threaded holes on the base for people wanting to add spikes to the base, or rubber feet. I can see people adapting or modifying the suspenskit to their own taste/fantasy. ;-)

And back to those rubberbands, I am convinced they are the best tools for the job. ;-)

Lee

[SEAWOLF97]

instead of different devices for different models , just make a universal one with mounting
holes for the major TT's ..4 or 5 models , don't think that's enough to cause a "Swiss Cheese" effect.

Regas ? I've never seen one, but do see a lot of AR's & Technics & Philips & Pioneers and Denons ...
guess I don't run with the affluent gangs ..???

[Lee in Montreal]

instead of different devices for different models , just make a universal one with mounting
holes for the major TT's ..4 or 5 models , don't think that's enough to cause a "Swiss Cheese" effect.

Making a universal kit that allows no compromise is indeed the ideal solution. But sadly, something will be compromised somehow and somehwere. Per exemple, to fit a Rega TT, the kit must be deeper. Thefore, if fitting a shallower SL-1200, some space will wasted, and then people will start complaining the suspension takes up too much place. That being said, I am in favor of optimizing a design for each application. Production of that kit is pretty easy. Therefore it is not costly to produce several versions.

All that being said, comes another dilemma. How do I want to sell them? I am alresdy very busy designing andf selling my automotive line of products for BMW track/race cars. adding another line of products means more working making invoices, boxing and shipping. I suppose that a much younger and enterprising person would see the situation as favourable. It is. But I prefer to take my motorcycle and travel countries I don't know, or spend weeks in the desert. That means that as years go by, I will spend more time away from work, and enjoying every day of it... ;-) So, perhaps after those suspensions will have enough exposure, sales might be only thru wholesale. Selling 10 per 10 at a minimum and allowing 33% profit for the resellers.

Currently thinking of making a webpage to separate the audio from the automotive stuff. Nowadays. It might be as simple as creating a Facebook page. And it is totally free.

Lee

[Wagner]

The two most popular REGA platforms are the current "RP6" and the former "Planar" series (2&3)

The "RP6" demographic would prove to be the ideal target with which to test the waters; it is their "middle" deck and is EXTREMELY popular, even in light of the fact that it reportedly suffers many, (one is "many"; too much in my mind for a deck at this price point) and often, (as in many reports on-line) manufacturing flaws (ergo the extreme popularity of the aftermarket sub platters)

Regardless, once the stock REGA "feet" are removed, the deck should present a more shallow profile than the SL-1200 (although there is the stub of the bearing housing sticking out from the underside of the plinth as well as the more shallow plastic housing for the motor)

The Planar "25" as well as the Planar "9" have a wood trim surrounding the plinth which the standard Planar "3" does not; I do not currently have here at the house both of these models from which I could provide dimensions but I do currently have a "25" around here somewhere

Deeper and better bass? OF COURSE! Spread the word! Don't make the error of poo pooing that one my friend, otherwise, what's the point? (if you are interested in making money with this)

I stated I did not know the "ins and outs" of protecting your idea, and yes, I hear what you are saying. I am familiar with the "same but different" phenomena of skirting legality when it comes to (plagiarizing) manufactured goods.............my not so subtle inference was however that maybe a very plausible first step would be to not reveal so much of the specifics............by continuing to do so you might just not be the "first" to bring this idea to market, test or otherwise

As I understand things with some of the more successful REGA aftermarket outfitters, much of their product is made and delivered as demand dictates. Inventories are small, and with the bigger pieces, orders are taken until a target number is hit (to merit a production run) and the bits are made and shipped. Similar to what you are describing but without a "middle man" or distributor (the majority of the REGA bit guys maintain a standing exposure on ePay, but do take orders from fellow forum folks, the forum participation seeming to be a big part of their success). I'm rambling now; that would be all your business if you decided to pursue this.

All I am saying is that it is currently being done, more than a few individuals are doing quite well by it AND most importantly, I am convinced that your idea once polished would quickly find a market and sell briskly at first...............for how long who knows (history has shown, until the next "mouse trap" for deck isolation comes along) It is definitely a "flavor of the next couple of years" sort of thing.

Unfortunately even if the product does 100% of what it claims to do, this is often the case; I could see this idea making you a lot of money very quickly (sales in the 100s, possibly better) and then dying down to a rather modest, yet predictable stream (that inventory of 10 or so every 6 months would keep you covered)

I strongly suggest that you take a serious look at the Hoffman website; simply search REGA; you will need to view their enthusiasm over "tweeks" as a business person rather than an objective pragmatist, even though your product does work

As an additional benefit to you, the site enjoys a rather large Canadian population which wound surely make your life more simple with regards to shipping and customs (I know it can be costly for Canadians to order things from the United States)

My remarks regarding rubber bands had no bearing on their efficacy or their aesthetic...............it's just very difficult nowadays to find any that are worth a shit, to put it bluntly. I think their use is a marketing positive actually (again, if you could find a supply of any worth a shit) I do feel a more precision made "O"-ring however would allow for more precise tuning (which is going to be the "hot topic" on the boards as soon as you get one of these out there in the wild! )

Disregard all of my meddling/rambling if this wasn't even your goal in the first place

REGA's where the money is

Good luck with it