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Thread: Improvements I would like to see

  1. #46
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoninus9 View Post
    I'm not the enemy BMWCCA. I'm just a fan of JBL speakers who, like you, wants to continue enjoying my hobby. It's inaccurate to presume my comments are some sort of referendum, when I'm merely trying to understand the level of interest within the community. It's also wrong to assume that this is an "either/or" proposition. It's an idea of what's possible. That you disagree with my idea is clearly understood.

    Apparently, "Forum Feedback" should include a warning: "Say anything you want but do not offer any new ideas."
    I didn't say I was against what you propose. I am against turning this community into an activist group whose purpose is to lobby Harman.

    You've succeeded in upping your post count by a good factor and so far I think maybe one member has been encouraging in reply. You were implying a form of referendum by asking members what they wanted. So far the support for your ideas hasn't been there. But, to my point, even if it were, this is not your forum or mine. We are guests of the owners and it is their decision to embrace the idea of change, or not. And then there's always the option for you to take your ball to a new playground if you don't get the reception you expected, or wanted.

    You gave feedback and you're getting feedback. If you don't like the feedback, well, I'm sorry.
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  2. #47
    Member antoninus9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    You gave feedback and you're getting feedback. If you don't like the feedback, well, I'm sorry.
    It's not the feedback to my idea that I don't appreciate, it's the unnecessarily hostile attitude. And, don't bother quoting my Luddite comment to justify your actions, because we both know it was directed at you specifically, and not the other members of the forum.

    Since, we're having this more forthright discussion, I'd like to take the opportunity to point-out a problem with the logic being used here.

    1. This forum is supposedly dedicated to preserving Lansing's work, thus "Heritage"
    2. Since the death of Lansing many other engineers, including Greg Timbers, have devoted most of their adult lives to carrying on his vision
    3. Now, JBL is tossing all of that out the door, along with all its old fans
    4. I recommended we try to remedy this through various technical changes
    5. A supposedly "heritage" minded JBL fan, and a few of his buddies, attack me for trying to make a difference

    In a word: Hypocrisy.
    The Music Man's equipment: Sony AM radio

  3. #48
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Jeez!!!

    How long have the collective we bemoaned the slow demize of service parts for our vintage JBL treasures?
    How many posts have there been on that subject alone? And yet, when someone brings up a possible way to give us a voice about it, what happens? Do we openly discuss it? Hell no! We would rather be able to complain about our plight than even discuss any possibility to increase our position.

    Most times the ones who complain the loudest do the least to change things. How often do we hear: I hate flippers and scrappers and oh someones got to go get those or save those and how often do these people actually do it themselves?

    How many people actually vote the only way corperate America counts votes? With your wallet! When's the last time you bought anything cool from Harman? Why should they give a shit about our 30 year old speakers if we are not interested in ever buying from them now?

    I get that this is Lansing Heritage, and I like it here just fine, as is. BUT I am not closed to the possibility that it could be better and if it can, I'm in!

    So let me ask this? Why can we not even discuss this? It's like we are going to offend the gods?!? Do you think Don's going to pull the plug if we talk about change?

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  4. #49
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    You have a decidedly interesting view of the world, yourself, and your place in the world.
    I can understand hubris. I just don't find it very appealing.
    You are obviously from a far superior race and I believe I hear your planet now calling you home.

    Attachment 64955

    That is rude as hell! Why do you think this is acceptable in the sheltered, polite and quaint company of Lansing Heritage that you so love?
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  5. #50
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    So let me ask this? Why can we not even discuss this? It's like we are going to offend the gods?!? Do you think Don's going to pull the plug if we talk about change?
    I don't understand why anyone's offended or why it has gotten so personal.

    I would love to see the posters that are spending more energy jabbing at each other than being constructive remove their own offensive posts... as for the topic of getting Harman to listen to a hand full of zealots like us, I am over it. As for improving the site? If someone has the ability and energy... go for it.

    Finally... as for offending Don? He last looked at the site 5 days ago. I doubt this thread has hit his radar.

    I agree with you Barry... why not have a serious discussion about how we might improve the forum, and if along the way someone finds a way to get to Harman short of gaining a controlling interest in HAR... that could be interesting.



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  6. #51
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    I always find it interesting when a thread decays like this, to go back and read who the main antagonists are. It is always the same 3 or 4 people.


  7. #52
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    If the goal is to generate some interest from Harman and obtain a few important things, why not start by opening a petition on change.org?
    That is how people do these days

    Let's list what we would like to obtain, and see if there is a common trend in the community at least.

    I thinks many would agree on these ones:
    - bring back some NLA recone kits and diaphragms (2108, 2403, etc.)
    - existing vintage recone kits long term availability (2235, 2426, etc.)
    - TOTL speakers availability everywhere (new blue monitors for japan, K2, etc.)
    - TOTL components availability (1501AL-2, 476, etc.)
    - TOTL speakers long term support guaranty (recone kits and components replacements)

  8. #53
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    Let's list what we would like to obtain, and see if there is a common trend in the community at least.

    I thinks many would agree on these ones:
    - bring back some NLA recone kits and diaphragms (2108, 2403, etc.)
    - existing vintage recone kits long term availability (2235, 2426, etc.)
    - TOTL speakers availability everywhere (new blue monitors for japan, K2, etc.)
    - TOTL components availability (1501AL-2, 476, etc.)
    - TOTL speakers long term support guaranty (recone kits and components replacements)
    I would simplify it by saying "Return to the level of support that JBL had offered up until about 2005 or so. They used to periodically reintroduce out of production recone kits once demand had built up, and always supported the vast majority of drivers that had been in production for the past 25 years or so. They were arguably better in supporting their legacy products than just about anyone.

    As for offering additional drivers for DIY use, that would be a much more difficult to sell to Harman.

    1. In doing so it directly competes with their finished goods.
    2. It can be dangerous to the brand as most well intentioned DIYers will not get the level of performance from the high end drivers that JBL does.
    3. The potential of warranty claims is problematic.

    On the subject of getting product in different countries... they seem to be moving in that direction. Did they hear us?


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  9. #54
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allanvh5150 View Post
    I always find it interesting when a thread decays like this, to go back and read who the main antagonists are. It is always the same 3 or 4 people.


    So allow me to be the first to apologize.

    I am becoming very intolerant of intolerance. I know that sounds ridiculous but I see no alternative stance when tolerating intolerance allows intolerance to run unchecked.

    My best to all;
    Barry
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    So allow me to be the first to apologize.

    I am becoming very intolerant of intolerance. I know that sounds ridiculous but I see no alternative stance when tolerating intolerance allows intolerance to run unchecked.

    My best to all;
    Barry
    Something tells me you aren't one of the 3 or 4.

    re Antonious:

    As to this board somehow influencing Harman? Hard to say. They did finally recently allow sales of some products in the US that weren't previously available. If I was a betting man, my money would be on input from the bean counters trying to increase market share, not protestations from a handful of enthusiasts. Pure conjecture as I know as much about what goes on in Harman's boardroom as I do what goes on inside a supernova. That's not strictly true. I actually have at least a theoretical understanding of what goes on inside a supernova. Why Harman never originally intended to sell those items here is an even greater cosmic mystery.

    Replacement parts for decades old speakers? Sure, that'd be nice. The betting man in me thinks that there are probably more owners of 50 year old Chevrolets than 50 year old JBLs, yet Chevrolet likely doesn't have NOS parts for those, and no amount of enthusiast websites is likely to change their mind on the matter. The problem as I see it is the shortage of acceptable quality aftermarket parts. Plenty of companies to supply those for vintage Chevys - because there are a lot more Chevys to start with.

    So build an app, a Facebook page, whatever floats your boat. I personally see no problem, the world goes round and round. I wouldn't count on one thin dime of support from Harman, or any official response from them. Sure this is the "Lansing Heritage" site, we like to wax nostalgic over the good ol' days. But there is no "Lansing Heritage" division of Harman.

    Who knows if they even have the tooling to produce those legacy parts, or if they got shipped to the dump when the move to Mexico took place? If the tooling still exists, do the people who knew how to run it still work there? If the answer to either of those questions is "no", then I just don't see those parts ever being available form Harman - ever - regardless of how much noise anybody makes.

    Good luck in your quest, I'm all for it!

    Signed,

    Sancho Panza


  11. #56
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    I think most of these parts were already outsourced, so it might only be a matter or "releasing" the rights and let those companies build those part under their own name, or maybe only realsing the QA and engineering documents that were used to design and validate these parts.
    I think this is what Altec/GPA did.

    For example Meterion has been building the 2435HPL diaphragms from the start, and could probably easily offer replacement parts if JBL decided to stop their production.
    Of course as time goes by, NLA kits will be harder and harder to bring back into production...

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