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Thread: 4333 help

  1. #1
    Senior Member bldozier's Avatar
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    4333 help

    Alright, they are comming toghter, I have a few questions as aint yet got a listen to how these sound, I can see there is a mid range void, bummer. So I though about adding a 4411 or 4311/12 to the tops of the 4333 lenght wise. Just plop em up there. I've read that series wiring or parallel conections lower and raise the equipment ratings, are these two options no advisable if not why,
    Could I build the seperate speaker into the 4333 network some type of way, I may use the parent models in my LR as rear channels so, altering the cabinets is not an option
    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    If they are assembled properly, using the JBL crossover and complementary drivers,
    there is no midrange void.
    2231 woofer, 2312 horn with 2420/2425 mid-driver, and 2405 slot.

    What have you changed in your pair?


    Unit For low-pass: 38cm cone type (2231A)
    For mid ranges: Horn type (2308+2312+2420)
    For high regions: Horn type (2405)
    Play frequency band 35Hz - 20kHz
    Cross over frequency 800Hz, 8500Hz
    Directivity 60 degrees x 30 degrees (16kHz)
    Impedance 8ohms
    Output sound pressure level 93dB (new Japanese Industrial Standard)
    Allowable input (RMS) At the time of a network: 75W
    800Hz or less: 75W
    800Hz or more: 30W
    Enclosure dimension 156L
    Dimensions Width 619x height 778x depth of 497mm
    Weight 59kg




    Quote Originally Posted by bldozier View Post
    Alright, they are coming toghter, I have a few questions as aint yet got a listen to how these sound,
    I can see there is a mid range void, bummer. So I though about adding a 4411 or 4311/12 to the tops of the 4333 lenght wise.
    Just plop em up there. I've read that series wiring or parallel conections lower and raise the equipment ratings,
    are these two options no advisable if not why,
    Could I build the separate speaker into the 4333 network some type of way,
    I may use the parent models in my LR as rear channels so, altering the cabinets is not an option
    Thanks.
    2ch: RPi-4, Oppo, Acurus RL-11,Jolida 502,Valencias,JBL L212,Von Schw
    7: Oppo BDP103D, B&K, UREI 809A, JBL B460

  3. #3
    Senior Member bldozier's Avatar
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    Other then their location from time to time nothing.
    I have not heard them I cant corroborate any sound information, zilch.
    But I would think the addition of a dedicated mid ranged frequency will only hop up its playing field.
    the 4333 might sound great as is.
    But with the 43xx stuff, im guess it will help.
    Brian.

  4. #4
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    I have heard 4333 systems and there is no midrange hole when using the original drivers.
    Actually, the pair I heard at one time belonged to Clive Davis of Arista records - they worked well.
    They were used as studio monitors -
    I do not think 4333 Monitors need midrange help if they are in good condition

    Are you using different drivers? [If so, which ones?]
    Do you have the original crossovers?
    Have they been refreshed with the blood of new capacitors?
    New diaphrams?



    Quote Originally Posted by bldozier View Post
    Other then their location from time to time nothing.
    I have not heard them I cant corroborate any sound information, zilch.
    But I would think the addition of a dedicated mid ranged frequency will only hop up its playing field.
    the 4333 might sound great as is.
    But with the 43xx stuff, im guess it will help.
    Brian.
    The 4 way monitors are a different animal - if you want to upgrade your 4333 to 4343 specs,
    you would need a different, more complex crossover and a 10 inch mid bass driver.
    2121, 2122, or 2123 can be used with consideration applied to the crossover legs depending on which you use.
    2ch: RPi-4, Oppo, Acurus RL-11,Jolida 502,Valencias,JBL L212,Von Schw
    7: Oppo BDP103D, B&K, UREI 809A, JBL B460

  5. #5
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bldozier View Post
    Other then their location from time to time nothing.
    I have not heard them I cant corroborate any sound information, zilch.
    But I would think the addition of a dedicated mid ranged frequency will only hop up its playing field.
    the 4333 might sound great as is.
    But with the 43xx stuff, im guess it will help.
    Brian.
    Hi bldozier,

    4333 is 3way system without midbass driver (as4343 has).
    If you want to try some upgrade, may be 2441/45/46 with SL diaphragm, or Radian Aluminum, or Tryextent-Be diaphragm with 2311 horn can be used in order to improve lower frequency region.

    regards
    ivica

  6. #6
    Senior Member martin2395's Avatar
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    Exactly, with the bigger driver you could lower the xover frequency between the 2231 and the 2441/2450.

  7. #7
    RE: Member when? subwoof's Avatar
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    short answer

    using the 2311 and larger driver is of no help.

    The length of that combination is SHORTER than the 2312
    so no advantage for LF extension is realized.

    Please use the search function and read the
    discussions on this.

    Physics 101...

  8. #8
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by martin2395 View Post
    Exactly, with the bigger driver you could lower the xover frequency between the 2231 and the 2441/2450.
    Nope -= do like I did - get a Smith Horn and the larger driver - sweet sounds ensue!
    2ch: RPi-4, Oppo, Acurus RL-11,Jolida 502,Valencias,JBL L212,Von Schw
    7: Oppo BDP103D, B&K, UREI 809A, JBL B460

  9. #9
    Senior Member bldozier's Avatar
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    Mike iam reading, just some of the more techincal refrences are not 2nd nature too me. I am viewing two opposed comments each correct be these are from a personal connotation.
    Maye eithe of you can explain your suvesstions further.

    Would phasing a midrange 2122 in its own enclosure, or le5-2 coupled into its 4310 series enclosure work.
    what about the
    123a-1 and le20-1, how would they be cut into the system? Im getting way ahead of my self...
    But is this just simply combining the 3133a network with the n/a or 3111 network, is that possible. Could I combine separate networks with one another. Like putting pen to paper?

  10. #10
    Senior Member remusr's Avatar
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    Why are you building these 4333's?
    Wait until you hear them before you modify or add.
    To sound like a 4333 you need all the original drivers, horns and crossovers. There will be no midrange "bummer" if you do this.
    Talk to someone experienced in audio speakers or read some basic HiFi books to understand how a speaker system works.
    But basically the 4333's 2235 woofer handles the bass or lower frequencies up to 800 cps or Hz. The low crossover transitions frequencies above 800 to the 2425 midrange driver and its 2312 horn. The shorter 2307 and 2311 horn is not generally used below 1200 Hz. The horn must be able to couple the attached driver to the listening field efficiently at the lower 800 Hz end and that is why the longer 2312 horn is used. The high frequency crossover passes signals above 8500 Hz to the 2405 high frequency driver with integral horn.
    Horns and drivers lose dispersion and sound clarity if used above their intended frequency range, and lack power handling and air movement capability below their intended frequency range, so that is why most systems use multiple drivers.
    I texted this on my phone so hope it is understandable.

  11. #11
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remusr View Post
    ......
    The low crossover transitions frequencies above 800 to the 2425 midrange driver and its 2312 horn. The shorter 2307 and 2311 horn is not generally used below 1200 Hz. The horn must be able to couple the attached driver to the listening field efficiently at the lower 800 Hz end and that is why the longer 2312 horn is used. The high frequency crossover passes signals above 8500 Hz to the 2405 high frequency driver with integral horn.
    Horns and drivers lose dispersion and sound clarity if used above their intended frequency range, and lack power handling and air movement capability below their intended frequency range, so that is why most systems use multiple drivers.
    I texted this on my phone so hope it is understandable.
    Hi remusr,

    I have to agree with you from the theoretical point of view, but there are two things that have not be overridden:
    - diaphragm size area of 244x driver is about 4~5 TIMES larger then 242x driver,
    - the shape of the 3133A network response (applied into 4333 speakers) has -3dB around 1kHz, while on the 800Hz it is about -6dB, relative to the 3kHz region, so it would be difficult to say that the 244x (with 2311 & 2308) driver diaphragm of would be overloaded (under expectable home listening conditions) using 4333 network.

    I have used 4333 (DIY) network with 2235 & 2441 (with Radian 1245 AL-diaphragm) with 2311 + 2308 (lenses) + 2405 and I have realize that the the mid-rage sound is more natural then with 2420+2312+2308 has been applied. Only that I have realized that 2441 (+ 2311 +2308) is more efficient then 2420 combo, so I have to apply some more attenuation ( with L-pad).

    On the other side we can see that JBL have 4343 speaker that has mid-bass (2121) applied, so I believe that JBL people have decided that using mid-bass driver would be give more natural response of the speaker. Fortunately, our forum member Mr. GT , can give us some more details about that.

    May be some can be find in the:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post249312

    measurements has been done by the Forum member 4313B [ http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...r.php?15-4313B ]

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post217846

    I want to emphasis here that 2441 (AL) diaphragm is more sensitive to the low-frequency large signals then Titanium or Radian 1245 (aluminum membrane with Mylar® surround)



    regards
    ivica

  12. #12
    RE: Member when? subwoof's Avatar
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    laws of physics

    But you cannot change the laws of physics - shorter horns mean higher crossover points...period.

    Does not matter the size / material of diaphram, type magnet, color of paint or whatever slope the designer of the **SYSTEM** used for the transitions...

    short horn is a short horn.

    Be it conical, exponential, hyperbolic, CD, radial, bi-radial, wood/glass/kangaroo dung/unobtanium, sold from radio shack ( RIP ) or a high end boutique with signed papers, hand-buffed edges and speaks japanese.

    short horn is a short horn.

    sub

  13. #13
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    This whole thread is jumbled and very confusing - help us out here.

    First - do you have an actual working pair of 4333 speakers at the moment?
    (Or even one complete 4333 cabinet with factory drivers and factory crossover)
    Or is this just a box you plan to put speakers into and make it something ...

    Have you taken the time to listen to your speaker(s) yet?
    Are all the drivers the original drivers as chosen at the JBL factory,
    and if so, are they working correctly in the unmodified factory cabinets?

    If not, what drivers are you working with.
    Do you have the original factory crossover in use?
    If not, what crossover are you running the systems with?

    You keep talking about modifying them, changing drivers and such,
    so I cannot believe you have a properly working pair of 4333.
    Many of us here have heard properly working 4333 systems -
    and they do not need a helper tweeter to be added.
    There is no midrange void with the system as provided by JBL.
    if your pair has that problem, it means something is off and needs to be REPAIRED,
    no hack or redesign or added parts are needed.

    Should I gather that English is a second language to you?
    I only ask because some of your sentences read a bit oddly ...
    If not, please don't take offense - I know when I get enthused over a project and type rapidly,
    sometimes I leave words out here and there so some of my posts read a bit funny.



    Quote Originally Posted by bldozier View Post
    Mike iam reading, just some of the more techincal refrences are not 2nd nature too me.
    I am viewing two opposed comments each correct be these are from a personal connotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by bldozier View Post
    Alright, they are coming together, I have a few questions as aint yet got a listen to how these sound, I can see there is a mid range void, bummer. So I though about adding a 4411 or 4311/12 to the tops of the 4333 length wise. Just plop em up there. I've read that series wiring or parallel conections lower and raise the equipment ratings, are these two options not advisable if not why,
    Could I build the separate speaker into the 4333 network some type of way, I may use the parent models in my LR as rear channels so, altering the cabinets is not an option
    Thanks.
    2ch: RPi-4, Oppo, Acurus RL-11,Jolida 502,Valencias,JBL L212,Von Schw
    7: Oppo BDP103D, B&K, UREI 809A, JBL B460

  14. #14
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    I'm looking for clarification. Has the OP acquired some midrange horns? What did the speakers consist of when getting a sense of how they sound?
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  15. #15
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    2311 & 2308 & 2441 into 4333

    Quote Originally Posted by subwoof View Post
    But you cannot change the laws of physics - shorter horns mean higher crossover points...period. Does not matter the size / material of diaphram, type magnet, color of paint or whatever slope the designer of the **SYSTEM** used for the transitions... short horn is a short horn. Be it conical, exponential, hyperbolic, CD, radial, bi-radial, wood/glass/kangaroo dung/unobtanium, sold from radio shack ( RIP ) or a high end boutique with signed papers, hand-buffed edges and speaks japanese. short horn is a short horn. sub
    Hi subwoof,

    Interesting explanations. Does that mean that any type of horn would have almost the same characteristics, and ONLY the length of the horn is important. If it that would be the truth the easier would be to put the pipe of the desired length. In such situation the if the length of the mentioned pipe (Lp) is equal Lp=Lambda/4, so Lambda=4*Lp, owing to the strong interference of the reflected wave cancellation would happen at the frequencies = (2k+1)*Co/Lambda ( k=0,1,2,.... ; Co speed of sound in the air, about 345m/s), and a kind of maximum would be at= 2k*Co/Lambda.

    In the case of 2311 horn (including driver's internal horn of about 7cm) approximately Lambda/4= 17cm, so Lambda=4*0.17m = 0.68cm, that would correspond to about f=500Hz, second minimum would be expected around 1500Hz, etc. So using the driver&horn combo would not be good to be used under mentioned 500Hz frequency.

    Using "HORN-RESP" calculator applying about 10W (12,6Veff) about 115dB/1m can be get, while diaphragm displacement would not be more then 0.2mm from the mentioned (500Hz) frequency (everything without applying high-pass filter, that has to be used, as mentioned on the 3133A network, -6dB is around 800Hz, the voltage on that frequency is reduced twice, relative to say 3kHz). As I have remembered (for JBL 244x drivers ) 0.5mm is a kind of diaphragm maximum displacement allowed.

    All-in-all I think that 2311+2308 with appropriated driver such as JBL 2440/41/45/46/50 can be used, even in 4333 system.
    Interestingly, using longer horn (while keeping the same mouth size) diaphragm displacement over 500Hz remains almost the same.

    To be honest, I only know "Karlson coupler" type of 'horn' that is almost pipe-like (with the appropriated long slot), but it seems that such solution is not widely accepted.

    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-...n-coupler.html

    Mr. John Karson patent US 3445852A has been an 'inspiration' for making Karlson-Couler, but not to forget Adolph Boehmen "SPRINKLER" patent US538861
    [ http://www.google.com/patents/US538861 ] from the year 1895 ( May 7 ).

    Some more theoretical explanation about Karslon coupler in acoustic can be find in:

    http://www.cameng.com/pdf/the_k-coup...ransformer.pdf


    I am aware that all above is just an approximation, but I believe that may be useful.

    Regards
    Ivica
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