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Thread: New JBL waveguides, #5006812 90x50 vs PT-F95HF

  1. #16
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    Hi Sebackman,
    Thank you for the posts.
    A question, #5006815 can be used for 2450SL without a custom adapter (something like you have made for M2 waveguide) ?

  2. #17
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Hi,

    2450SL and 243* will bolt right up. 2451 and 2447 will need an adapter. I have both setups and there is no sonic or measurable difference with or without adapter.


    I have had a version of the adaptor made and can post the drawing if desired.

    kind regards
    // RoB
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

  3. #18
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    Hi Rob, thank you for the quick reply.

    I only have 2450SL, so drawing is not needed, thanks.
    Your graph with 2450SL is pretty impressive, indeed.
    My system is MTM configuration (DMS-1), so this horn must be the perfect upgrade from 2332.

    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post
    Hi,

    2450SL and 243* will bolt right up. 2451 and 2447 will need an adapter. I have both setups and there is no sonic or measurable difference with or without adapter.


    I have had a version of the adaptor made and can post the drawing if desired.

    kind regards
    // RoB

  4. #19
    Senior Member NWCgrad's Avatar
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    Has anyone tried the 2453H-SL CD with the VTX waveguide? I am in preliminary stage of a new build and this combo is on my short list.

    Planning on running with a 2206, XO close to 1 kHz. I think the STX825 has an XO of 1.3 kHz and the VTX is active but seems to be less than 1.5 kHz based on the spec sheet.

  5. #20
    Senior Member NWCgrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post

    The 1" version is also good and I have several friends changing plans when they heard the 1"/2226 combo with either 2206 or 2226. Personally I think the 2206 sound better as the XO will have to be >1kHz for the 1” driver horn combo. Just for trying I swapped in a Radian alu diaphragm in the 2426 on the 1" waveguide and that was a fantastic combo with the 2206. -Well worth a thought as the 2426 may be easier to come by.

    Kind regards
    //RoB
    Hi RoB,

    Is the 1" version the same size as the 1.5" VTX horn? I am planning my next build and it will be pretty expensive, I currently have B&C DE250 CD's on Eminence H290 horns, if the ytwo JBL horns are the same size I could keep my B&C DE250 CD's for now and upgrade later to the 1.5" horn with one of the 4" aquaplas JBL CD's.

    This iterative step could only work if the two JBL horns have the same baffle rebate as I would want an easy replacement.

    Will be using active DSP and have measurement equipment so the XO change should be fairly painless.

    Thanks,
    Steve

  6. #21
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Hi NWCgrad,

    Sorry for the late reply.

    Yes, they are the same size with the same bolt pattern. However the 1" is a completely different animal than the 1,5" and more as the old PT waveguide where the VTX waveguide is closer to the M2 waveguide. I understand that they may look the same in a picture but in reality they are very different, both sonically and measurement.

    2453SL should be fine but I would recommend 2450SL/2451SL/2352 due to the different phase plug that I find suit the horn better.

    Kind regards
    //RoB

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    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member NWCgrad's Avatar
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    Thanks for the information. It would be easiest to start with the VTX horn and the 1.5" CD. Really appreciate the info on the differences between the 4" CD's. Will go with onexcursion of the three listed and not the 2353SL.

  8. #23
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Here is a better picture over the differences. Please check with others and your ears, the above statement is just my personal 25 cents :-).
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

  9. #24
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    I'm wondering if this waveguide is the exact the same front size as 2332.
    I mean if they are exchangeable each other without cabinet modification.

    Thank you again.

  10. #25
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    If it is like the original PT (and I am 99.9% sure it is) then yes the dimensions are identical, but the mounting holes are not.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebackman View Post
    Hi,

    2450SL and 243* will bolt right up. 2451 and 2447 will need an adapter. I have both setups and there is no sonic or measurable difference with or without adapter.


    I have had a version of the adaptor made and can post the drawing if desired.

    kind regards
    // RoB
    Hi RoB,

    Thank you for having shared your results with the VTX horn. I would like to use them with my 2447 so can you post the drawing for the adaptor you have made ?

    Many thanks and have a nice day,

    Guyome.

  12. #27
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Adapter drawing

    Hi,

    Sorry for the delay. Attached is the rather crude drawing I used.

    Kind regards

    //RoB

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    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
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  13. #28
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    Thank you RoB

  14. #29
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    Hello RoB,

    Since you have also tested the M2 horn with the same drivers, is the M2 horn worth the money compared to the VTX horn ?

    Thanks and have a nice day,

    Guyome.

  15. #30
    Member sebackman's Avatar
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    Sorry for late reply

    Hi,

    Difficult question…

    The M2 system is probably among the most neutral sounding system on the planet. I heard them and Everest II last week in NYC and both are spectacular. For us DYI’ers the question is if we want to try to copy them or build something according our own thoughts and/or use drivers we already have.

    I typically go for the latter, knowing that with my limited measuring capabilities and time restrictions I will never get to the “M2 package” level. However by using good components and careful design I can get reasonable/acceptable close and be happy that it was my design. But an M2 it will never be.

    Regarding M2 waveguide it depends on what you aim for. If you are aiming to make a true M2 clone with electronics and dsp you are better off making it as close to the original M2 as possible, as “M2” is a system and not “a speaker”. It’s a complex mix.

    If cabinet size is no restriction and you have a well behaved room (large and/or well dampened) the M2 horn may have an edge due to the way it deals with indirect sound. -Even in a different cabinet and a different woofer.

    If you have a “normal” room with some hard walls and/or limited size the more direct sound from the VTX may be an advantage.

    Sound wise I would argue that the VTX has a similar sound as the M2. M2 uses indirect sound more to get a very even curve in listening position over a large area. If you can accept a smaller sweet spot and/or have hard walls the smaller sweet spot of the VTX may be an advantage.

    M2 uses the D2 driver and if you, like me, go for a different driver (read 4”) then you will have to determine your own EQ and XO points. Not very difficult but more work. And easier with VTX than M2.

    I built 2 pairs of VTX F12 clones (2206/2450SL) and they sound fantastic. I did build a M2 “wannabe” with a 475Nd and LE1400H with the full BSS DSP support and in a large room they sound very neutral. Albeit LE1400H is not as good as the 2216Nd, but I did have them at hand. DSP can bring you closer, but probably not all the way.

    In my HT (5.2) I use 2451Be’s with 045Ti’s above and there I currently run VTX horns. I do have a full M2 horn set sitting idle in the shop but haven’t really found energy to build the new ones as the VTX sounds so good. I run the system off a BSS BLU800 dsp.

    I will probably build a M2 based 5.2 set this winter (or next...) but more because I have the pieces than sheer need. I could live happy with the VTX system.

    Worth noting is that I run 2451Be’s that roll off pretty quickly after 12-14k and will hence use 045ti’s above, as today with the VTX horns. It is probably not needed but to my ears the sound is more “light” with them than without them. Even at very high XO points, > 15kHz. It should not be and maybe it is just placebo, but that is what I hear.

    If did not have the Be’s in my possession I would run coated SL dia’s (2450SL or 475Nd) and be done. No 045’s, just as I do in my 2-way “Compact Monitor”. There is no need for 045’s with the 475Nd diaphragms in my opinion. Probably the same thing with D2 as JBL made the 2347 2-way. A 2-way system is much easier to get “integrated” than a 3-way and that is worth giving some thought.

    Be’s sounds slightly better in the mid’s and I prefer the 3-way system with them as they fall off quicker.

    Two of my friends have built HT’s recently and one is running M2’s and the other VTX. Both with 476Nd’s and they both sound very good indeed.

    From my point of view and for me not going for making exact M2 clones I would argue that it is not worth to go for M2 horns. The VTX horns behave very well and are easier to equalize.

    They do not go down to 800Hz as the M2 and should be XO’d at 1-1400kHz with a 24LR slope. This may limit the number of woofers that can go this high but for sure many of the fine new JBL 12” ad 15” would do this without any problem.

    Hope this helps

    //RoB
    The solution to the problem changes the problem.
    -And always remember that all of your equipment was made by the lowest bidder

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