UREI Speaker discussions

[BMWCCA]

Actually you are making my point exactly... one that I must not have made clearly.

Take any 43xx 3-way, 4-way... they can be multi-amped and precisely time aligned and it will not significantly change their imaging. This is because like most speakers of the last 50 years, the polar response across their entire spectrum is a raging nightmare. Mirror imaging doesn't fix this, time alignment doesn't fix this, realistically there is nothing to be done with these designs if imaging is the goal.

To get a very consistent and controlled polar response from ~500Hz up is very difficult without waveguides and a fair amount of design and care. As it turns out coaxial designs like the modern KEF LS50, the Genelec Monitors, and the vintage UREIs have inherently better directivity control (wide frequency response range polar response) than traditional speakers... AR3a, L100s, and >90% of everything else out there. Many of the better designed 2-way mini-monitors image well because the small woofer and dome tweeter on a compact and narrow baffle can exhibit very good directivity, but even following this model is no guaranty.

Odd that this discussion comes up now. My wife made her way to the basement workshop last night and sat in the listening chair while I was playing the Kind Of Blue Deluxe 50th Anniversary Collector's Edition and the first thing she asked was if all four pairs were playing, when in fact the only ones playing were the 250ti on the ends. Then she commented on how distinct each individual instrument was and how everything was placed so well across the room. She doesn't know the term "soundstage" but she certainly gets it. Not sure why it would take a 2-way with a wave-guide to improve this but I'm pretty pleased with the way the massive 4-way pyramid does it—without a modern wave-guide. At one point I toyed with getting a 1400 Array. Maybe that needs to be my next acquisition just to see what it can do. At the time I got sidetracked by the 4345 for the same money.

[rusty jefferson]

Actually you are making my point exactly... one that I must not have made clearly.

Take any 43xx 3-way, 4-way... they can be multi-amped and precisely time aligned and it will not significantly change their imaging. This is because like most speakers of the last 50 years, the polar response across their entire spectrum is a raging nightmare. Mirror imaging doesn't fix this, time alignment doesn't fix this, realistically there is nothing to be done with these designs if imaging is the goal....
Widget

Agreed, 100% :-)

....To get a very consistent and controlled polar response from ~500Hz up is very difficult without waveguides and a fair amount of design and care. As it turns out coaxial designs like the modern KEF LS50, the Genelec Monitors, and the vintage UREIs have inherently better directivity control (wide frequency response range polar response) than traditional speakers... AR3a, L100s, and >90% of everything else out there. Many of the better designed 2-way mini-monitors image well because the small woofer and dome tweeter on a compact and narrow baffle can exhibit very good directivity, but even following this model is no guaranty.
Widget

It's probably me but you are losing me here. I wouldn't have put the UREIs in the good controlled directivity category like say the 708 monitors. Can't imagine the polar of a UREI would be as good as the 708. I'm not convinced it isn't the point source (and time alignment) that gives UREIs that coherence? I'd like to do a side by side between the 708 and the KEF LS50. I'm sure they'd sound different, but I'd imagine the KEF would be more coherent (focused). Maybe not though.

[Mr. Widget]

It's probably me but you are losing me here. I wouldn't have put the UREIs in the good controlled directivity category like say the 708 monitors. Can't imagine the polar of a UREI would be as good as the 708. I'm not convinced it isn't the point source (and time alignment) that gives UREIs that coherence? I'd like to do a side by side between the 708 and the KEF LS50. I'm sure they'd sound different, but I'd imagine the KEF would be more coherent (focused). Maybe not though.

Again we are using words to describe a psychoacoustic phenomenon and that is tricky at best.

When I think of good imaging I am describing the disappearing act that a speaker can perform when creating a holographic sonic image in a stereo configuration.

Using that definition, I do not know how the UREIs compare to the 708s or LS50s... they will all perform differently and will all be affected by the rooms they are in and the placement within the room, but a well controlled room and fairly narrow dispersion characteristics to reduce secondary reflected sounds go a long way to creating a coherent and stable image.

In my experience the best imaging speakers I have yet heard are the MTM speakers I deployed in my HT. A stereo signal to the left and right speakers is simply startling. https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...l=1#post442266

I have heard a lot of speakers in numerous rooms over the years that were really excellent at imaging, but these little buggers are shockingly good at creating a holographic image. Perviously one of the best imaging systems I had heard was a DIY tractrix horn system in an extremely dead (almost fully anechoic) dedicated listening room.


Widget

[Robh3606]

Agreed, 100% :-)



It's probably me but you are losing me here. I wouldn't have put the UREIs in the good controlled directivity category like say the 708 monitors. Can't imagine the polar of a UREI would be as good as the 708. I'm not convinced it isn't the point source (and time alignment) that gives UREIs that coherence? I'd like to do a side by side between the 708 and the KEF LS50. I'm sure they'd sound different, but I'd imagine the KEF would be more coherent (focused). Maybe not though.

Here are the polars of the Urie 813 The caption on the figure 16 is incorrect says 4430 is 813 and as Widgets says a mess.

Rob

[rusty jefferson]

Again we are using words to describe a psychoacoustic phenomenon and that is tricky at best.

When I think of good imaging I am describing the disappearing act that a speaker can perform when creating a holographic sonic image in a stereo configuration....
Widget

Okay, we are using slightly different definitions of imaging. With these older speakers I refer to the image as what's captured between the 2 stereo loudspeakers. Your description of the disappearing act I would refer to as transparency, and then depending on where the image is, ideally behind and beyond the width of the speakers, soundstaging. UREIs and Altec 604s don't disappear. There will always be information audible from the loudspeakers themselves. They are not transparent for the reasons you've outlined, but they still image really well, listened to on axis. In my experience, speakers that have low diffraction cabinets, wide and matched dispersion at crossover in well treated rooms, have the best transparency and soundstage characteristics.

...In my experience the best imaging speakers I have yet heard are the MTM speakers I deployed in my HT. A stereo signal to the left and right speakers is simply startling. https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...l=1#post442266...
Widget

I remember those speakers. Come on, they're modern UREIs! :-D I'm sure they image beautifully. Here's my quote from that thread.

Barry, I just looked at the data sheet and it appears (but doesn't say) that the crossover point to the horn is pretty low, perhaps as low as 600hz. Down to 1khz even, diffraction isn't going to be an issue. Those 2 woofers are acting as one, and with the horn are acting as a concentric point source like the Altec 604 or UREI 801. There will be a little rippling of interference from the horn but it's low enough in frequency not to be a big deal. The drivers also appear to be physically time aligned and the advantages of that can't understated. If it was an MTM design that crossed over at a more typical 2khz-3khz range, the interference would be problematic.

[1audiohack]

Hi All;

Once again, the ancients have stolen our secrets.

These W2-2W8's are in the Community Loudspeaker catalog in 2007 and may be older than that. They feature canted woofers with carbon woofer cones and dust caps. They call the configuration Super Vee.

I am not knocking Widgets Meyer Sound speakers at all. I do think these are pretty cool.

Barry.

[thierry]

Pretty cool. Maybe they upgraded at some point? I think the music video to April Wine's "I Like to Rock" shows a lot of footage from the studio, but no monitors.Good to know, thank you for the response. I can't seem to find very much information about the 6500, but I've got my eye on them. How difficult was it to change the thermistor?

Hi No 10mn not more it's easy....

[DerekTheGreat]

Hi No 10mn not more it's easy....

Hrmm. Sounds like something I could do. Now I just need to find an affordable unit or somebody local who is willing to let me test one for a while. I'm pretty content with the quad Crown set-up I've got going, but I'd like to collect nearly everything related to the 81xC series.

This unit looks really nice, but local pick-up only and down in Georgia. Dude claims to have several of 'em too....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/32593420255...Bk9SR8yCupG6Yw

[hjames]

Apologies if I've posted this before - but a few years back I was watching a Tom Petty documentary and sat up at attention when I saw his home monitors were UREI 809s ...
So I took a picture of him on my TV, flanked by my UREI 809 front-main speakers (almost feel guilty using UREI monitors for TV/Movie monitors).

[Mr. Widget]

Nice... I also appreciate your Mystery Clock.

Widget

[DerekTheGreat]

Post away!

I remember this though, what documentary?

We just upgraded the entertainment set-up downstairs. Bit of a bummer to learn the 811C I had lying in wait to be a center channel won't fit with these tables. Need ones half the size, but they didn't exist at the time we bought everything. But, I'm loving the 811C's as left & right! So don't feel ashamed about using your 809's. Perhaps an 809 might fit between the two stands where my 811C didn't..

[Mr. Widget]

Nice setup!
What are your UERIs sitting on.

Widget

[DerekTheGreat]

Thank you, sir!

They're sitting on subwoofers, M&K MX350THX's. I still do not like how the subwoofers' profiles are slimmer than the UREI's, not to mention their woofers are smaller. I'm getting used to it. In my head, a subwoofer's woofer must be larger than (or at least the same size) the main speaker's woofer... My ears disagree though, I'm very pleased with audio down there. I wonder if I'd even like a center channel. From what I remember when I last used one, I wasn't satisfied, especially when listening to concerts. Some stuff was mixed so bad that it was all sent to the center and so it sounded thin. Forcing the old receiver into stereo mode resulted in much better sound and so I eventually disabled the center altogether. This was before the XPL's or UREI's.

[DerekTheGreat]

I came across this article the other day:
https://www.musicdinosaur.com/blogs/...d-of-urei-gear

Talks about UREI gear and goes on to say, "...Many vintage UREI pieces have been used on recent hit records, such as Adele's 25 and Kendrick Lamar's DAMN." Makes me wonder what those pieces were.