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Thread: "Remember, there is no substitute for a big-ass 4-way speaker!" -- Does this qualify?

  1. #61
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    The S4 was meant be a an out door Texas bookshelf (4350)

    I have heard then at number of concerts down here often hanging of stacks of Clair Bros version of the Phase Linear 700B which I have owned.

    Nothing even comes close

    The JBL sound through and through

  2. #62
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    Probably the best advice yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    If you wouldn't object to a personal comment--You should not try to use the speakers as they are. As soon as you get them remove the drivers and get some nice white boxes to put them in and stack them neatly in the garage. Post sales on ebay for two 2242's , 6 2123's, 2 horns with treble drivers, and 2 2405's . Doing that you will hopefully net out pretty well. Build some 4355 crossovers and some of the nicest cabinets you can. Biamp at the woofer/midrange handoff. And stay married.
    Dave,

    Your plan makes a bunch of sense from several perspectives.

    But it does bring up quite a few different questions:

    1. Who will build the cabinets? I don't think I'm that handy.

    2. Do I build a 4345 (or 2 sets! ), 4350, or a 4355? I sorta like the double-woofer look. I have 4 2235s available for use in a 4350 project. From reading lots of threads on the LH site, I think some might say the 4350s with the 2235s might sound better than the 4355s with the S4 2242s.

    3. Phil referred me to the 4343 thread with the cc passive for the UHF, HF, Mid. The woofers would be independent & active, I suppose.

    4. I located a gentleman who will build me new PCBs to bi-amp my 4430s. Do you know of anyone who would build (or has built) the charge-coupled 4343 design PCBs? I'm fairly handy with a soldering iron, having worked for TI in an 'granny line' in prototype military shipboard computers. My Lewy body Parkinson's symptoms slow me down a little these days, but I still think I could build some 'slick' electronics!

    Thanks again, Dave,

    Greg

  3. #63
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    However, if I want to 'play' with them ....

    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave View Post
    If you wouldn't object to a personal comment--You should not try to use the speakers as they are. As soon as you get them remove the drivers and get some nice white boxes to put them in and stack them neatly in the garage. Post sales on ebay for two 2242's , 6 2123's, 2 horns with treble drivers, and 2 2405's . Doing that you will hopefully net out pretty well. Build some 4355 crossovers and some of the nicest cabinets you can. Biamp at the woofer/midrange handoff. And stay married.
    First, I'd like to play with them 'as is', so I will need access to each speaker's terminals. There is an 8-pin plug in the rear-center of each cabinet. That probably means all the speakers are tied to the plug in some fashion in the internal box for the 4 X 10" mids.

    I will replace that plug with some external barrier/terminal arrangement. There need to be 10 sets -- 20 total -- 'output' connections, with each tied to a set of the S4 speaker terminals. I would like the output terminals to be electrically connected to the inputs, of course, but with separate screw(?) terminals. The whole junction piece needs to be heavy duty, and it wouldn't hurt if it had a cover available. The inputs would be amplifier/external crossover output conductors of fairly heavy gauges.

    Can anyone recommend a junction apparatus that I can use in the above fashion? The outputs won't see much change, if any. But the input side needs to be 'industrial-duty' in respect to multiple uses/changes for the different amplifier/crossover configurations that I plan to try.

    Any experience to share in this regard? Thank you!

    Greg

  4. #64
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    You may have a little bit of a tiger by the tail. I can't tell you what to do, but if you don't mind, I can fantasize about what I would do:

    To use them in their present configuration I would first have to know where the sub enclosure divisions are and how the cabinet is presently wired. The wiring from the eight-pin connector is probably run through the inner walls through small holes sealed with duct seal or the like. I would want to minimize mucking around inside the cabinet, especially if the boxes are lined with fiberglas.

    I would need to know how the multiple units are connected. The woofers are probably in parallel. Two midranges may be in series and then the two series pairs in parallel. The horns and tweeters I don't know. Hopefully all the wiring is color coded, and if I could loosen the eight-pin connector and pull it out enough to see the wires, that combined with pulling drivers I may be able to map the existing wiring. Once that is done I could begin to make decisions about revised connections and amp and crossover channels.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

  5. #65
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Could use several Speakon panels (perhaps using 4-pole connectors), and decide on a method for indelible label making...
    that last part is probably the most important suggestion I can make.

    Can make your own cables to pick how the amp end is terminated (tinned wires, banana plugs, spade lugs, ...)

  6. #66
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    Unless the S4 Cannon/ITT EP-8 input connector is damaged, I would keep it. A suitable replacement would be something like a Neutrik NL8 which is readily available.
    In either case, locate your terminal block distribution at the amplifier end.
    If memory serves, the EP-8 pinout resembled a negative/positive
    (odd pin/even pin) pair arrangement starting with Low>Mid>High.
    The last pairs of pins were not used as the VHF section was passively crossed over from the High section.
    Pay close attention to the series and parallel configurations of the drivers as well as their polarities
    It`s been a while since I`ve been inside an S4 but there were passive crossover components in there and should not be messed with.

  7. #67
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    So, I should get a schematic first?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike F View Post
    Unless the S4 Cannon/ITT EP-8 input connector is damaged, I would keep it. A suitable replacement would be something like a Neutrik NL8 which is readily available.
    In either case, locate your terminal block distribution at the amplifier end.
    If memory serves, the EP-8 pinout resembled a negative/positive
    (odd pin/even pin) pair arrangement starting with Low>Mid>High.
    The last pairs of pins were not used as the VHF section was passively crossed over from the High section.
    Pay close attention to the series and parallel configurations of the drivers as well as their polarities
    It`s been a while since I`ve been inside an S4 but there were passive crossover components in there and should not be messed with.
    In other words, by removing drivers, using my Fluke, and, in general, doing a lot of sweaty work, I should develop, at the least, some sort of 'modular map' of the internals?

    Then build cables from the cabinets to the amp/crossover location, using an NL8 or whatever, at the S4?

    Try some stuff, and go from there?

    OK -- Works for me. I guess .... . But I'm sure gonna have a lot of questions: After I explore the internals. And before I turn on the amps!

    Greg

  8. #68
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgregory4 View Post
    In other words, by removing drivers, using my Fluke, and, in general, doing a lot of sweaty work, I should develop, at the least, some sort of 'modular map' of the internals?

    Then build cables from the cabinets to the amp/crossover location, using an NL8 or whatever, at the S4?

    Try some stuff, and go from there?

    OK -- Works for me. I guess .... . But I'm sure gonna have a lot of questions: After I explore the internals. And before I turn on the amps!

    Greg
    Hi Greg,

    May be

    https://www.parts-express.com/dual-e...air--091-1154#

    can help

    regards
    ivica

  9. #69
    Senior Member macaroonie's Avatar
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    You can still buy EP series connectors if that is what is on the back of the cabinet

    http://www.amphenolaudio.com/Amphenol_Metal_EP.html

    But for then purposes of your experimentation I would suggest just breaking it out to barrier strip.
    PE have a 20 way for a few bux.

    What you will most likely find inside is just that but there will also be protection caps and shunt resistors for the horns and slots.
    You may find all this on a PCB or somesuch , they had to have kept it organized somehow.

    And I would e mail Clair Bros for any data that pertains , I'm sure they will have same , perhaps online.

    We need pics of course or this is just a silly dream. Them's the rules , have fun. M

  10. #70
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Unnecessary Censorship

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    talk about a divisive topic...

  11. #71
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Now that's funny!

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    Now that's funny!

    Barry.
    Rains in west Texas once per year -- today. Wife's car is in the rain now, but the S4s are OK. The left side of the garage is mine -- the right is hers. I've got a week to rid her right side of the S4s.

    The grills are nice, the drivers look 'cared for', and each side weighs a lot! Getting them off the pallet was an adventure.

    Greg
    Attached Images Attached Images    

  13. #73
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    That's a few barrels of fun and monkeys!
    Hope the sun hasn't done more than fade
    the cone paper.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Altec Best's Avatar
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    Looks like your gonna need to do some cleanup on your side there Greg....

    Them things are Awesome !
    "James B. Lansing" = Lansing Manufacturing ~ Altec Lansing ~ JBL

  15. #75
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    Mostly OK, Grumpy.

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    That's a few barrels of fun and monkeys!
    Hope the sun hasn't done more than fade
    the cone paper.
    The cones and surrounds really look OK, with the exception of one 2123H surround. Actually, the cabinets themselves are in fairly good shape. I'm considering rotating them 180 and trying them with the 2405s on the upper outsides. My listening position will only be about 20' from them, so not much horizontal dispersion is needed. I don't know what to expect from the horns wrt their effect. Is it similar to the 'cheek' effect? (4430s, etc.)

    Greg

    Altec,
    I really don't know if I have it in me: 27? Hell, yes! But 67? It will go down to the wire!

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