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Thread: "Remember, there is no substitute for a big-ass 4-way speaker!" -- Does this qualify?

  1. #46
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    That was my initial thought, Jeff.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    The 2405s are to the side of the horn in the 434X series of monitors. I'd run 'em like in post #38 with the 2405 slots vertical. It's not like you can't flip them around some other way if that doesn't suit you.
    In my 'crazy' post #35 I admitted what actually prompted me to spring for the speakers to begin with: Rotating the boxes and drivers to achieve some semblance to the 434X series, and using multiple crossovers appropriate to that series. So, I figured it was time in the thread to admit I actually had some sort of 'inspiration'. But, as Hank the Cowdog philosophizes, "There's fine line between inspiration and indigestion."

    Thanks for your input, Jeff,

    Greg

  2. #47
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    The 2405s are to the side of the horn in the 434X series of monitors. I'd run 'em like in post #38 with the 2405 slots vertical. It's not like you can't flip them around some other way if that doesn't suit you.
    Hi JeffW,

    Here , I think , there would not be the problem with 2405.
    They can be rotated easily, but more "troubles" can arise from the mid-bass and VHF drivers positions, as been said in the:
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post365892

    even the bass drivers positions if the boxes are near the floor can produce some problems in the room.
    All these are from the theoretical point of view, but that Mr. Greg would give us his impressions "when the time come".

    May be my calculations are wrong but something like on the attached figure can be expected.
    so a kid of beaming can be expected. here I have tried to calculate horizontal FR in the case where 4 drivers are horizontaly in line positioned, about 0.3m apart center to centre.,starting from 100 Hz to 5000Hz, with 100Hz step, so on 1000Hz about +/- 15 deg off axis woul be usable listenig direction.

    Regards ivica
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  3. #48
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    They're not my speakers, so what I say doesn't really matter, but something about having the 2405s near the ground seems strange. But you guys do whatever suits you. I don't recall any JBL monitors with the tweeters in the bottom corner unless the speakers were mounted upside down and hung from the ceiling, I guess it never occurred to me to fly these in a home environment.

  4. #49
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    They're not my speakers, so what I say doesn't really matter, but something about having the 2405s near the ground seems strange. But you guys do whatever suits you. I don't recall any JBL monitors with the tweeters in the bottom corner unless the speakers were mounted upside down and hung from the ceiling, I guess it never occurred to me to fly these in a home environment.
    Hi JeffW,
    I agree with You that it would be strange tahat 2405 would be near the flore, so that is why I have suggested the posible solution such as in post.36.
    regards
    ivica

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champster View Post
    Allen,
    You wouldn't happen to remember where he was selling them do you? I'd like to try a pair too.
    Thanks
    Paul
    Looked and it doesn't look like they're up for sale any more. Keep a look out using searches of 2" fiberglass horn that's how I found mine. They won't be listed under Clair or s4.

    Al

  6. #51
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    A Starting Place. Jeff. Ivica. Barry. Others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    Hi JeffW,

    Here , I think , there would not be the problem with 2405.
    They can be rotated easily, but more "troubles" can arise from the mid-bass and VHF drivers positions, as been said in the:
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post365892

    even the bass drivers positions if the boxes are near the floor can produce some problems in the room.
    All these are from the theoretical point of view, but that Mr. Greg would give us his impressions "when the time come".

    May be my calculations are wrong but something like on the attached figure can be expected.
    so a kid of beaming can be expected. here I have tried to calculate horizontal FR in the case where 4 drivers are horizontaly in line positioned, about 0.3m apart center to centre.,starting from 100 Hz to 5000Hz, with 100Hz step, so on 1000Hz about +/- 15 deg off axis woul be usable listenig direction.

    Regards ivica
    Jeff, Ivica, Barry, et al

    Thanks for your help and comments. The S4s arrived today -- about one week before I expected them, naturally. Some begging and pleading was involved, but I convinced the freight foreman to take pity on me and store them for a week in their warehouse. By then -- next Friday -- the 'Lady of the House' will be halfway around the globe, and I will take delivery. Then I'll have about 10 days to make them disappear -- and yet be accessible for work on them, as I have the time. Piece of cake!

    I'm thinking my first approach will look something like this:

    1. Position them as in Post 38, with the 2405s rotated and at the top outer edge of each unit.

    2. I'm no Clair audio expert (That's for sure!), but I think they used the four 2123Hs to get maximum mid-range SPL from an efficient set of drivers. Ivica, horizontal dispersion wouldn't seem to matter much when you have a dozen, or so of the S4s side-by-side in a concert.

    3. However, I intend on using only the 1st and 3rd 2123Hs (from the outer edge) on first try. Ivica, I'd like to know what your analysis would indicate, in terms of wider dispersion, with that scenario.

    4. Then I will attempt to use two 434X crossovers for each cabinet.

    5. Connect four 250 watt amps and see if the music 'goes round-and-round, and comes out here'.

    Then report my failures to the LH forum for all to enjoy!

    A plan? Obviously subject to your comments and a thousand changes of mind by me.

    Greg

    PS -- I can obtain some of the original cabling that plugged into the back of each cabinet, as shown in the eBay auction. But, it seems that single plug really limits my options to 'play' with the drivers and the physical configuration of each driver within each cabinet. Does that make sense? So, I think I'll save myself about $1500, and not worry about Clair's original processor or their cabling. What do you think?

    PSS -- My cousin can make me 12 6"X6"X8" solid walnut blocks -- six per side -- to elevate the cabinet 8" off the floor, bringing the total height of the cabinet to 60". Does that seem reasonable to you 434X experts?

  7. #52
    Senior Member hsosdrum's Avatar
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    When stacked vertically, the midbass drivers form a line array that limits vertical dispersion, reducing destructive interference between boxes when multiple boxes are arrayed. Orienting the box as in post #38 will increase midbass reflections from the floor -- whether or not this will be a problem in your listening room remains to be seen (well, heard). However, I think this has more potential for sonic problems than the proximity of the UHF drivers to the floor, considering how short the UHF wavelengths are and how little stuff there is above 7kHz in the signal, versus how much of the music is being reproduced by the four 10s and how long those wavelengths are (between 8 ft and 1 ft). I would have a couple of strong buddies on hand at your evaluation session who can help rotate them 90 degrees.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Mike F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaulive View Post
    But then you will have the HF and the mid high drivers side to side, which will create comb filtering on the horizontal plane.... not good.
    You should keep the drivers stacked vertically, not horizontally.

    Even the four mid bass drivers spread so wide on the horizontal plane will wreak havoc.

    Totally agree. They have to be oriented with a vertical driver alignment. You need to get them high up and the only things that are negotiable would be tweeters on the inside or the outside depending on your room and listening position .
    I hope you have a high ceiling and a strong roof.
    Did any of these come with the S4s?
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  9. #54
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgregory4 View Post
    Jeff, Ivica, Barry, et al I'm thinking my first approach will look something like this: 1. Position them as in Post 38, with the 2405s rotated and at the top outer edge of each unit. 2. I'm no Clair audio expert (That's for sure!), but I think they used the four 2123Hs to get maximum mid-range SPL from an efficient set of drivers. Ivica, horizontal dispersion wouldn't seem to matter much when you have a dozen, or so of the S4s side-by-side in a concert. 3. However, I intend on using only the 1st and 3rd 2123Hs (from the outer edge) on first try. Ivica, I'd like to know what your analysis would indicate, in terms of wider dispersion, with that scenario. 4. Then I will attempt to use two 434X crossovers for each cabinet. 5. Connect four 250 watt amps and see if the music 'goes round-and-round, and comes out here'. Then report my failures to the LH forum for all to enjoy! A plan? Obviously subject to your comments and a thousand changes of mind by me. Greg
    Hi Greg, May

    I am too boring , but again I would suggest the box position as on the Post.36. picture, so 2123 stacked VERTICALLY ,
    but if You insist to use the box that 2123 being stacked horizontally, and want to use only two of them,
    then use two that are nearby, say No2 and No.3.
    I believe that in such case You will use only SINGLE 2441, as use the one that are just over used 2123 pair,
    and I think that SINGLE 2405 , the one near the 2441 would be enough.

    regards
    ivica
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  10. #55
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    So, a sorta 4355?

    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    Hi Greg, May

    I am too boring , but again I would suggest the box position as on the Post.36. picture, so 2123 stacked VERTICALLY ,
    but if You insist to use the box that 2123 being stacked horizontally, and want to use only two of them,
    then use two that are nearby, say No2 and No.3.
    I believe that in such case You will use only SINGLE 2441, as use the one that are just over used 2123 pair,
    and I think that SINGLE 2405 , the one near the 2441 would be enough.

    regards
    ivica
    Ivica,

    You are anything but boring, and I appreciate the education you give me -- you must have a huge amount of experience, to go with your technical knowledge. Thank you, once again, for your comments.

    So, if I understand your comment, you are saying that if I want the 2405s on the upper right, the best compromise would be the outlined in your image? That configuration would be distant-kin to a 4355?

    Greg

  11. #56
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Hi Greg;

    Have you received the DBX 481 yet? I don't recall for sure, does that one have RTA?

    I see a bunch of chatter on orientation and wondered what you had planned?

    I have been thinking about the driver compliment of your boxes and how I would utilize them. So a couple of questions for you:

    What are the rough dimensions of the space they are going into?

    What will your distance from them likely be?

    How do you want to orient the boxes?

    If the DBX doesn't have RTA, do you have any acoustical measurement gear?

    Allow me to share a couple of observations about the drivers you have:

    2242's sound reasonably good up to about 250Hz.
    2123's will not play down to 200Hz with authority.
    2123's are somewhat difficult to integrate but when they're right, they're nearly magic.

    That said, I would employ all four of the 2123's but only let one of them run all the way put to the horn crossover. This will eliminate the interference patterns of running them all up high. It looks like the 2123's are on about 10" centers? If so they will enjoy the benefit of mutual coupling up to about 235Hz and you will need them all to match the output performance of the 2242's. As luck would have it most people like a 3-6dB step down in volume in the 200-250Hz range so that works to your benefit but getting that part right is always a challenge. I have some ideas of how to start but they are somewhat dependent on how you plan on deploying them.

    All the best,
    Barry.



    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  12. #57
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    Barry, Here's all I have at the moment!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    Hi Greg;

    Have you received the DBX 481 yet? I don't recall for sure, does that one have RTA?

    I see a bunch of chatter on orientation and wondered what you had planned?

    I have been thinking about the driver compliment of your boxes and how I would utilize them. So a couple of questions for you:

    What are the rough dimensions of the space they are going into?

    What will your distance from them likely be?

    How do you want to orient the boxes?

    If the DBX doesn't have RTA, do you have any acoustical measurement gear?

    Allow me to share a couple of observations about the drivers you have:

    2242's sound reasonably good up to about 250Hz.
    2123's will not play down to 200Hz with authority.
    2123's are somewhat difficult to integrate but when they're right, they're nearly magic.

    That said, I would employ all four of the 2123's but only let one of them run all the way put to the horn crossover. This will eliminate the interference patterns of running them all up high. It looks like the 2123's are on about 10" centers? If so they will enjoy the benefit of mutual coupling up to about 235Hz and you will need them all to match the output performance of the 2242's. As luck would have it most people like a 3-6dB step down in volume in the 200-250Hz range so that works to your benefit but getting that part right is always a challenge. I have some ideas of how to start but they are somewhat dependent on how you plan on deploying them.

    All the best,
    Barry.



    1. Yes, the DBX 481 does have 'RTA', although I haven't a clue what that means.

    2. What is 'mutual coupling'?

    3. Look at post #51 and you will see my 'plan', although I am contemplating the 2405s in the middle, between the two 2441s.

    4. The 2242s seem to have a much greater range than you suggest. I would run one up to about 800 hz, and have the second 'join in' below about 350 hz.

    5. Your suggestion on the single 2123H will not be difficult to implement.

    6. I have some 2445s that would sub for the 2441s easily.

    Greg

  13. #58
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Wow, how did I miss that thread??
    This is serious illness, congrats
    What is the geometry of the 2441 horn?

    good luck (on all accounts) !

  14. #59
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    Serious indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    Wow, how did I miss that thread??
    This is serious illness, congrats
    What is the geometry of the 2441 horn?

    good luck (on all accounts) !
    Serious indeed -- the 1004#/456kg pallet will be delivered Friday. And I'm starting to feel a little 'green around the gills'.

    There have been several questions on the 2441 horns. I'll inspect, and report to y'all.

    Greg

  15. #60
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    If you wouldn't object to a personal comment--You should not try to use the speakers as they are. As soon as you get them remove the drivers and get some nice white boxes to put them in and stack them neatly in the garage. Post sales on ebay for two 2242's , 6 2123's, 2 horns with treble drivers, and 2 2405's . Doing that you will hopefully net out pretty well. Build some 4355 crossovers and some of the nicest cabinets you can. Biamp at the woofer/midrange handoff. And stay married.
    "Audio is filled with dangerous amateurs." --- Tim de Paravicini

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