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Thread: DIY 2235h, 2206h, 2446J Be or TAD 4001 and 2405H Build Thread

  1. #16
    Senior Member christo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champster View Post
    I thought I'd start a thread on my attempt to build a reference system that is one step more advanced than the JBL Synthesis K2 S9900. Although I have never heard the S9900, I love the design concept and am pretty sure it would rival, or exceed, many high end, audiophile systems. I am thrilled to get your comments (positive or negative) on my project. I realize that in any project like this, there are varying opinions on build theory and I won't bristle at your thoughts.
    As for getting vintage JBL’s to sound anywhere near modern JBL speakers you won’t come close. I know as I have them side by side (4344/K2 S9900) and it is no contest. A beryllium compression driver in the 4344 helps with imaging but nowhere near what the 1500AL-1/476Mg combo can do. I have spent hours fiddling with my 4344s and have them sounding as good as they’re going to get, you can’t tell your listening to a horn speaker any more, but they’re no were near the K2s.

  2. #17
    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    Moderator: How do I change the title of this thread. I fix the typo "1446" to "2446" and want to change the 2235h to a 2245h. Maybe this can't be done once the thread is started.

    Thank you Cristo (and others) for your confirmation of JuniorJBL point to dedicate the 2235 as a sub and Lee's suggestion to consider swapping out the 2235's in favor of the 2245's. I have now sourced two 2245 frames and will be having Orange County Speaker recone them next week with new, original JBL cone kits.

    I am curious Cristo about your comments on the sound quality and would appreciate you expanding your thoughts. I love your approach to focus on great sound quality (not max SPL's) as THE design goal. Unfortunately, the modern drivers in the S9900 are hard to come by, so for the time being, I am left to using the older JBL gear. If I find my results mirror your comments, swapping out the midrange CD is an option down the road.

    However, I would appreciate your comments on the following as well.

    The approach I am taking is different than the 4344. In the 4344, there is a blatant dis-concern for one of Drew Daniel's very first points on the Horns page in his Daniel's System. In this article, one of the required design aspects is to orient the midrange horn and woofer driver physically very close to each other. The 4344 doesn't take this thought as far as it could and perhaps that is one of the reasons the purity of its horn is challenged compared to your S9900. The other reason, is that the 4344 (and others like it) mount all the drivers on a simple, large, flat surface. The new Synthesis cabinetry is very sophisticated in comparison also uses much steeper crossover slopes. There is another issue to discuss. One of my personal pet peeves is the high crossover point on both systems for the woofers. On both the 4344 and the S9900, they run the 15" woofers to a much higher crossover point than I find enjoyable. For example, Daniel's runs his woofers up to 300hz, the 4344 up to 340hz and even the S9900 up to 900hz. As JuniorJBL suggested earlier, to limit the large driver to well below 100hz and, in fact, ideally, no more than 50-75hz. To drive this point home, in the case of Mr. Linkwitz's designs, he runs his THOR sub (12" sealed cabinet with EQ) up to 45hz with a 24db slope. I realize, in the case of the S9900, the woofer isn't designed to be a true sub, but nevertheless, it is still a large, heavy cone that does have responsibility to cover the lower registers. It is for this reason, I chose to use the 2106h (12") in between the 15" (now 18") originally. The 2106 versus the 10" of the 4344 allows for nearly full power down to the Subs crossover point. In a DSP system, I can use the 2106 in a sealed cabinet, adding about 5db of EQ to get it to 60-75hz with very good power handling characteristics. This will allow the 2245h to do what it is ideally suited to do.

    I'd love all of your comments...

    Thanks,
    Paul

  3. #18
    Senior Member christo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champster View Post
    Thank you Cristo (and others) for your confirmation of JuniorJBL point to dedicate the 2235 as a sub and Lee's suggestion to consider swapping out the 2235's in favor of the 2245's. I have now sourced two 2245 frames and will be having Orange County Speaker recone them next week with new, original JBL cone kits.

    I am curious Cristo about your comments on the sound quality and would appreciate you expanding your thoughts. I love your approach to focus on great sound quality (not max SPL's) as THE design goal. Unfortunately, the modern drivers in the S9900 are hard to come by, so for the time being, I am left to using the older JBL gear. If I find my results mirror your comments, swapping out the midrange CD is an option down the road.
    I have had the pleasure hearing another member’s 4345 (for far too little time) and have spent hundreds of hours with my 4344s and K2s. Each speaker has a very distinctive sound and I and enjoy all three sets. Don’t get me wrong my comments are not meant to criticize the 43xx series. When the 43xx’s are set up correctly are very impressive (killer) and far exceed many of today’s systems.

    The more obvious factors with the difficulties of trying to match the performance of modern JBLs with vintage gear, is component engineering. Thirty years have gone by and there have been improvements in driver design, materials used and electronics etc. all of which has been discussed in detail in this forum. In the Array series, K2, and E2 (and others) these advances are very evident with the quality of the sound.

    As for your discussion of the cross-over points and different combination of drivers I’ll have to leave that to others who have much more experience in this area as I’m not one of them.

    What I can relate to you is my impressions;

    • The K2s generate a very wide and deep sound stage there’s no need to sit in a sweet spot with the 4344s there is definitely a need to sit in a particular spot.
    • The micro nuances in the sound that K2s are capable of is extraordinary to the point of being almost three dimensional. Think of the sound of a really good set of headphones but this is occurring in the open air over a large area. The 4344s won’t do micro nuances without a beryllium driver and now where near what the K2s can do.
    • When listening to the K2s most of the time it is impossible to associate sound with the individual speaker you are totally immersed and surrounded by the sound field. The 43xx are very direct.


    When guests hear the K2s these are the typical reactions;

    • Within 120 seconds their jaw drops and they realize there are hearing something special.
    • More than one has made the comment this is live!
    • More than one has made the comment I can’t tell where the sound is coming from, as they look left, right, up, down and behind them.
    • None are in a particular hurry to leave and one guy was still listening 2 hours later.


    Guests don’t react to the 4344s they like the look of them and agree they sound better than most other speakers they have heard but that is about it.

    On a personal note I listen to each set for 3 to 4 weeks and then swap (only one set of amps). I thoroughly enjoy the 4344s but without the TD-2002 I would have deemed the project a fail as I would not listen to them (originally I was using a 2426H). When swapping from the 4344s to the K2s you have to let a few days go by to erase the sonic memory of the K2s. If you swap from the K2s to the 4344s and listen to music immediately it basically sucks. But swapping back to the K2s is cool because it’s like the first time you ever heard them and you get to go WOW all over again.

    I have added a pair of Array 1500s to augment the K2s bottom end and I’m very happy with the combination, they blend easily together. The Array 1500 also reminds you of just how good a driver the 1500AL-1 is.

    If you serious about a reference system beyond a K2 you should consider those two very rare components for sale in the LH Marketplace at the moment.

    I would also strongly suggest that you go and have a listen to a K2/E2 system etc. prior to embarking on your project it may influence some decisions. Not that there is anything wrong with your project, you will end up with great sound.


    Chris
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Not meaning to move the goal posts but have you considered the E145?

    Its a very nice driver if you want to consider a low distortion hi sensitivity 2 1/2 way. use the 2245 as a sub and omit the 2206

    The ideal behind the Drew Daniels system is deliberate band width limiting with brute force.

    Crossing over below 300 hz can invite issues like group delay.

    At frequencies below 150 hz you have lots of room modes that have peaks of +- 10-15 db.

    If you are not really careful using a sub crossing over in that territory can excite those room modes and its ugly.

    How often do we hear loud moaning that I cannot get my subs to integrate with the mains?

    Just letting the main driver run its full band pass ie 40 - 800 hz and then use a low pass filter only for the sub below 40 hertz can work if you tweak it enough.

    I am looking at something similar with OEM 3rd party drivers...yes I am sinner I know but if you thought JBL distribution was bad in the USA try down under...

    So I am stretching the low end response extension of a hi sensitivity low distortion under hung 15 inch woofer as far as possible with what GT calls a banana curve tuning.

    The idea is the response goes lower but shelves earlier like at 80 hertz but the room gain adds back some lift of around +5 db below 100 hertz and you can get another 10 hertz extension down to system resonance ie 35 hertz as opposed to 45 hertz.

    You can then mess with using the 2245 for what it was made for ie B460 tuning and you have serious 25 hertz capability.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Mostlydiy's Avatar
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    Interesting project. Youre certainly aiming high constructing a system with "old" drivers to compete with todays top of the line drivers, a 4 way diy network at that. This is not easy, I hope you will be satisfied.

    /Mostly

  6. #21
    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    Thank you Mostly. Yes it is a very ambitious effort. I have just sourced a TAD 4001 original Be diaphragms along with the new JBL 2446's with a Ti ribbed diaphragms to A/B after it is assembled.

    I like the system pictured in your avatar. Do you have a link you could send me with larger pictures and details of it?

    Thanks,
    Paul

  7. #22
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    This is the driver line up in my 4 way active mains. I have B380's 2235's with BX-63A up to 80Hz E-145's up to 300Hz to 2123's up to 1.5K to PTH1010's with 435Be's. Works quite well. I wouldn't get all hung up on driver size. It's the capability of the individual drivers over their range that's going to make or break what you are trying to do. I went for speed and impact which is why I use an E-145 as a midbass driver. They also have to play nice with each other.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  8. #23
    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    This is the driver line up in my 4 way active mains. I have B380's 2235's with BX-63A up to 80Hz E-145's up to 300Hz to 2123's up to 1.5K to PTH1010's with 435Be's. Works quite well. I wouldn't get all hung up on driver size. It's the capability of the individual drivers over their range that's going to make or break what you are trying to do. I went for speed and impact which is why I use an E-145 as a midbass driver. They also have to play nice with each other.

    Rob
    Good advice. Thanks!

    I thought you were using the speaker in your avatar?

  9. #24
    Senior Member Mostlydiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champster View Post
    Thank you Mostly. Yes it is a very ambitious effort. I have just sourced a TAD 4001 original Be diaphragms along with the new JBL 2446's with a Ti ribbed diaphragms to A/B after it is assembled.

    I like the system pictured in your avatar. Do you have a link you could send me with larger pictures and details of it?

    Thanks,
    Paul
    Speaking of ambitious projects

    http://www.minhembio.com/mostlydiy/317875/

    /Mostly

  10. #25
    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    2245, 2206, 2446 Be, 2386, 2405

    Wow, Mostlydiy, that is an ambitious project. Do you still use it as shown in the pictures in the link?

    I haven't posted for a while because I've been planning my dedicated listening room addition, but now that I am nearing completion of the planning phase of that, I'll be able to begin building the cabinets for this system.

    So, since I've received a ton of very valuable input, here is where we are.

    As the title says, I've secured all the drivers and the DSP 4x10Hd, as well as, 2 - ATI 1506 amps.

    I have a few additional questions:

    1 - Is the 2405 really necessary with the TAD 4001 or JBL 2446 using the Truextent Be diaphragm? Thoughts?

    2 - Is the 2206 really going to offer the detailed midrange I'm hoping for? I see almost all of the big 4xxx JBL designs use a 10" midrange. Ideally, I don't want to run the 2245 any higher than 60hz. Thoughts?

    3 - I've decided to use the 2245 in a separate 12cf box and have the mains in their own cabinets. Using the DSP, I can easily adjust for time delays between the two. Thoughts?

    Thanks,
    Paul

  11. #26
    Senior Member Mostlydiy's Avatar
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    Yes, I still use them with 2482 and 2350 as in the last image in the link.

    With a minidsp 4x10 its easy to try different setups. I would try both with and without the 2405. I probably would use it but it might come down to personal preferences. Depending on the horn you are going to use with the 4001 or 2446 I think you might get better dispersion in the higher register using the 2405. (what horn are you going to use? havent seen it anyware but I might have missed it)

    I think you have to let the 18" go higher to be able to use a 10". The 12" should work better if you want to cross the low mid at 60. Unfortunately I have no experience with the 2206 so I cant comment on detail.

    If you are going to use the lows in separate boxes you might aswell first go with seperate enclosures all the way initially to figure out what setup you like like this guy.

    Just my 2c

    /Mostly

  12. #27
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    Okay I have both 2245 and 2235 for music unless you are going for the pipe organ the 2245 is better for the bottom but harder to match in the mid-bass. I prefer the 2118 for mid-bass since it is easier to blend with a midrange. Choose your midrange but I prefer the 2404 on the top for wider horn pattern than most of the design until K2.
    For music as long as I don't get crazy with the SPL 2235 works great above 30Hz (ported design).

    If you want to kick your pants then 2245 or something even crazier in the sub category. There are a lot of subs available that have some tremendous Xmax for sub-sonic performance.

    When I was working on a design for a fellow HT system that had 2206 for mid-bass in his words "lacks the punch in the upper ranges and not so great on the mid-range blend" we are still working on it but I think he has a room problem and analog crossover design.

    So is this music or HT?

    I use the high efficiency in the HT since the explosions and such dynamic level is where it is at.

    In the music system it is 2235 with a Dynaudio top end (10 inch mid-bass, 3 inch dome mid-range, 1 inch dome tweeter) , voice coils aligned very wide soundstage. Giving up on the top SPL but for about 99% of the music I play very listenable for the last 10 years.
    Last edited by colofan; 08-04-2014 at 06:12 PM. Reason: addition of the music system

  13. #28
    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mostlydiy View Post
    Yes, I still use them with 2482 and 2350 as in the last image in the link.

    With a minidsp 4x10 its easy to try different setups. I would try both with and without the 2405. I probably would use it but it might come down to personal preferences. Depending on the horn you are going to use with the 4001 or 2446 I think you might get better dispersion in the higher register using the 2405. (what horn are you going to use? havent seen it anyware but I might have missed it)

    I think you have to let the 18" go higher to be able to use a 10". The 12" should work better if you want to cross the low mid at 60. Unfortunately I have no experience with the 2206 so I cant comment on detail.

    If you are going to use the lows in separate boxes you might aswell first go with seperate enclosures all the way initially to figure out what setup you like like this guy.

    Just my 2c

    /Mostly
    Great points. I am using the JBL 2386 horn. I know it isn't as wide of dispersion as others, but I have read others suggesting that other JBL horns like the 2380 have a slot to force the wider dispersion that they claim changes the character of the sound. Also a great suggestion to have test boxes to swap drivers in and out to test what works best.



    Quote Originally Posted by colofan View Post
    Okay I have both 2245 and 2235 for music unless you are going for the pipe organ the 2245 is better for the bottom but harder to match in the mid-bass. I prefer the 2118 for mid-bass since it is easier to blend with a midrange. Choose your midrange but I prefer the 2404 on the top for wider horn pattern than most of the design until K2.
    For music as long as I don't get crazy with the SPL 2235 works great above 30Hz (ported design).

    If you want to kick your pants then 2245 or something even crazier in the sub category. There are a lot of subs available that have some tremendous Xmax for sub-sonic performance.

    When I was working on a design for a fellow HT system that had 2206 for mid-bass in his words "lacks the punch in the upper ranges and not so great on the mid-range blend" we are still working on it but I think he has a room problem and analog crossover design.

    So is this music or HT?

    I use the high efficiency in the HT since the explosions and such dynamic level is where it is at.

    In the music system it is 2235 with a Dynaudio top end (10 inch mid-bass, 3 inch dome mid-range, 1 inch dome tweeter) , voice coils aligned very wide soundstage. Giving up on the top SPL but for about 99% of the music I play very listenable for the last 10 years.


    I have both a pair of 2245s and 2235s, but have really settled on this being a dedicated sub under 70hz so I leaning toward the 2245. Your comments on the 2206 as a midrange are very helpful. As this is for 2 channel listening, I'm really leaning to using the 2123 above the 2206. This would also allow for a higher crossover point to the CD. In reading about the new JBL systems it appears to me that they are much better at blending the midrange with the large woofers and CD than, say, the woofers of yesteryear. So I'm considering using these older drivers in a narrow frequency response with the tradeoff, obviously, requiring additional crossover points and the required blending of the drivers. I'm not sure I can pull that off, but the miniDSP should make it faster and easier than using passive components. My ear is particularly sensitive to hearing midrange though a driver that is clearly too large and slow. I just don't care for using the 2235 for example in the L300 up to 800hz. I'm trying to avoid using drivers in a configuration that requires them to cover too large of range. I'm sure many will disagree with me and that is fine. I'm open to your opinions.

    Thanks,
    Paul

  14. #29
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    Before writing the 2206 off, you might take a look at This Thread

  15. #30
    Senior Member Champster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    Before writing the 2206 off, you might take a look at This Thread

    Thanks Jeff. That is a very interesting thread and it was helpful in my selection of the 2206, but didn't I read that 4313 replaced that system with another more current model.

    I guess as I've been thinking this through, and trying to find some previous design that I must be mimicking, I'm leaning toward a modified Daniel's system using a 2206 instead of the dual (2227) 15's.

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