Which Entry Level Turntable

[GordonW]

That's a new one, for me... "stylus drag". Been doing this for 20 years, and never had a problem with that.

Yes, I guess, if you had a cheap belt-drive table with a featherweight platter and a very stiff-suspended cartridge (ie, heavy tonearm with heavy-sprung cartridge cantilever), then you MIGHT have audible speed changes. But, with ANY of the modern belt-drives with heavy platters (the Music Hall MMF5 has a glass platter and a very strong motor, for one example), and modern high-compliance cartridges (even the moving coil carts have more compliant suspension than many of the MM carts did, back in the day!), this is not even REMOTELY a problem.

I will say this: I have A-B'd a Technics SL1200 to an MMF5... and the noise floor is SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER on the MMF5. And the resistance to feedback/howl is SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER on the Music Hall, too...


Not to mention, the bass goes about another quarter octave lower on the MMF5, too... once you've had TRUE BASS EXTENSION to 20 Hz, it's hard to go back...

What I've mentioned for the MMF5, should logically also apply to any other Music Hall table, and any VPI, Linn, Thorens, Sumiko Project, SOTA, Clearaudio or other similarly-suspended well-designed belt drive table (note that I did NOT mention the Regas... I feel their lack of suspension 'cripples' them in both the bass and feedback/howl department)... they all have PROVEN THEMSELVES to be first-class performers...

Regards,
Gordon.


Regards,
Gordon.

[Steve Schell]

I'm not sure whether stylus drag is a factor or not, but I do notice a difference with 'tables that use a high mass platter. I have demoed with several models of Teres turntables at shows, and the rock solid speed stability is audible and reassuring compared to anything I have used at home. Of course we were also using pricey moving coil cartridges, which do seem worth their cost when combined with a great 'table and source material. There's a lot of info in them thar grooves.

http://www.teresaudio.com/

[X_X]

Thorens line not mentioned? How on Earth can you even discuss the entry/midfi/high end used/new tunrtable market and not mention the great turntables put out by Thorens?

TD145
TD160

Both excellent, rock solid, user friendly turntables. Both perfect choices for the entry/mid fi market and/or vinyl newbie. Hard to beat the sonics vs price.

[Titanium Dome]

There are many bargains in used turntables. Certainly some of the best of the past are remarkably inexpensive today.

OTOH, if what you want to do is start with a new entry-level machine, there are a number of good choices. Here's a list with six or seven good choices, though I'd ignore the bottom of the list for sure.

http://stereos.about.com/od/stereoto...argain_tts.htm

IMO, you should look at buying new when possible. This is the only way that current manufacturers stay in business.

[SUPERBEE]

I have a lot of pristine vynil from back in the day when all I had was a new Pioneer SX-1250 and a pair of L-65s. I want to try the vynil again. What is a good new turntable w/cartridge for $300 - $600?

Linn or Thorens. I especially like the Thorens 125 with a Linn basik arm.

[SUPERBEE]

love my Technic 1200 series tables, as does almost every other "DJ type" out there...


don't know if that is a good thing or not.....

but the Technics tables are workhorses....

In my experience DJ Turntable=Destroy Record+Bad Sound Reproduction

[X_X]

IMO, you should look at buying new when possible. This is the only way that current manufacturers stay in business.

Completely disagree.

First- buying used is simple if you are dealing with someone that understands turntables and knows how to parcel them. A heap of older turntables have a set of 3 or 4 screws that lock down the suspension for a safe journey. If the seller removes the removable (platter, cart, and/or arm) and packages that independant of the plinth- all should be fine. How do people think new turntables are distributed? I have bought and sold several turntables overseas and NEVER had a mishap.

Second- buying a NEW turntable that doesn't meet or exceed the quality of a vintage one at the same price point means you are SUPPORTING a business that thinks you cannot spend your money wisely. You are also helping them profit by producing a substandard product. Is that the kind of businesses you want in the marketplace? I don't! On the other hand, if a company can deliver the goods at an appropriate price on a new product- buy it.

Third- The real market is in the aftermarket add ons and upgrades that support VINTAGE turntables! Support those businesses. Support the businesses that manufacture quality carts, arms, and all the other great accessory gear available today. I'm sorry, but few manufacturers today can produce a complete turntable that exceeds the performance of a properly set up vintage one at the same price point.

I say buy used when you can to help cue the manufacturers of today what is valued in a product. They are smart. The better companies will adapt and shift focus in that direction. Meanwhile, keep them alive by buying the extras to make that older turntable sing like it should!

peace.
Nate.

[Robh3606]

One of my favorites is the Empire 698 if you can find one.

Rob

[L100t Owner]

I bought as used VPI Scout and Dynavector 20x5. Great combo but don't fall for the hype. A really good CD sounds just as good with no pops and clicks. Some vinyl sounds outstanding and other juyst so so. Its really hit or miss.

If you are patient, you can get a Rega P25 (without cart) in your price range.

[Titanium Dome]

Welcome to the forums X_X. Glad you feel free to express your opinions.

You sound like a guy who wants to keep the used market alive.

Completely disagree.

First- buying used is simple if you are dealing with someone that understands turntables and knows how to parcel them. A heap of older turntables have a set of 3 or 4 screws that lock down the suspension for a safe journey. If the seller removes the removable (platter, cart, and/or arm) and packages that independant of the plinth- all should be fine. How do people think new turntables are distributed? I have bought and sold several turntables overseas and NEVER had a mishap.

Glad you're so fortunate. Others haven't been. Sellers often don't have a clue and don't do what you ask them to do when they ship something. "How do people think new turntables are distributed?" Well, the average seller wouldn't have a clue, with the boxes and memory of how the turntable came from the store long gone. I might buy a used turntable from you, since you seem to do a lot of buying and selling, but how would I know about someone else?

Second- buying a NEW turntable that doesn't meet or exceed the quality of a vintage one at the same price point means you are SUPPORTING a business that thinks you cannot spend your money wisely. You are also helping them profit by producing a substandard product. Is that the kind of businesses you want in the marketplace? I don't! On the other hand, if a company can deliver the goods at an appropriate price on a new product- buy it.

This is a specious argument; this same logic would imply we should only buy used cars. So if Honda can't deliver a new Accord for the same price that a 1995 Accord in good shape can be purchased for, don't buy it? A new fridge will cost $1000, but I can get a 20 year-old one for $75 that will keep things just as cold. Whirlpool Corp in Benton Harbor, MI can stay in business by selling me a new door gasket.

Third- The real market is in the aftermarket add ons and upgrades that support VINTAGE turntables! Support those businesses. Support the businesses that manufacture quality carts, arms, and all the other great accessory gear available today. I'm sorry, but few manufacturers today can produce a complete turntable that exceeds the performance of a properly set up vintage one at the same price point.

I don't think you're that sorry.

I say buy used when you can to help cue the manufacturers of today what is valued in a product. They are smart. The better companies will adapt and shift focus in that direction. Meanwhile, keep them alive by buying the extras to make that older turntable sing like it should!

peace.
Nate.

How would they (the manufacturers) know what you bought and why? Are we writing to them and stating, "I bought a used Thorens because it's better than yours, and here's why..."? I don't think too many people are doing that.

You're in good company here, though. I think a lot of members here will agree with you that old is better than new and that constantly recycling and tweaking (with new upgrades) vintage gear is the recipe for a superior experience while running down the new stuff. Fortunately, plenty of people buy new JBL products to keep the division alive, so it works okay for all I guess.

I've bought a lot of used JBLs, but also many new JBLs over the years. The new stuff I get is almost always better than the older stuff I have, and, adjusted for inflation, is a better value, too.

So, I acknowledge your complete disagreement, don't agree with it, and, again, welcome you to the forums.

[Robh3606]

You're in good company here, though. I think a lot of members here will agree with you that old is better than new and that constantly recycling and tweaking (with new upgrades) vintage gear is the recipe for a superior experience while running down the new stuff. Fortunately, plenty of people buy new JBL products to keep the division alive, so it works okay for all I guess.

Hello T Dome

Wasn't this a turntable thread??? That's true but I think most also recognize that there is only so much you can do to "upgrade" these designs. The most obvious is the crossover and potentially the cabinet tuning before T/S. The real bone of contention is the drivers. Some of the vintage drivers are engineering master pieces an example being the 2440/2441. It is still a good performer and desirable driver to this day but it is also an exception. Along those lines the newer drivers are technically superior however the key to the whole issue is which do you think sounds better. That's the rub and always will be. Even if the new stuff is technically better it's sonic merrits may not be immediately obvious. You have to have an open mind and give the new stuff a shot on it's own merrits. Comparing the "vintage" sound to new can be like apples and oranges. You need to taste both to really appreciate what the differences are.

Rob

[Titanium Dome]

Hello T Dome

Wasn't this a turntable thread??? (snip)

Rob

You just know once I get started I might take the damn thing anywhere.

Sorry all.

[X_X]

[quote=Titanium Dome;134548]

You sound like a guy who wants to keep the used market alive.

No, not really. I usually prefer the newer stuff. I just hate the new entry level midfi garbage that's out there trying to compete with the classics that far exceed the performance...for less money. The high end new marketplace is full of masterful products.



This is a specious argument; this same logic would imply we should only buy used cars.

I wasn't talking about cars, so the analogy is moot.


How would they (the manufacturers) know what you bought and why? Are we writing to them and stating, "I bought a used Thorens because it's better than yours, and here's why..."? I don't think too many people are doing that.

Are you serious? If I'm a turntable manufacturer (or work for one) wouldn't it be in my best interest to know something about the used turntable market? If suddenly a LINN LP12 began commanding 5 times it's cost to manufacture- guess what I'm buidling?

Simple R&D. The research aspect of that includes knowing your target market and how much that market will bear. The used marketplace is crucial to that because it lets you know what is valued. That's how you model a product.


You're in good company here, though. I think a lot of members here will agree with you that old is better than new and that constantly recycling and tweaking (with new upgrades) vintage gear is the recipe for a superior experience while running down the new stuff.

Don't act like you pegged me. That's not at all how I feel. That was rude. I didn't realize old and new were divided into two camps here. Either you are right and the average forumite is dim- or you are wrong.


Fortunately, plenty of people buy new JBL products to keep the division alive, so it works okay for all I guess.

Pat yourself some more, please. Should you be awarded something for saving the company from total destruction? Thank you, your blind loyalty is admirable. I dread the day my spending habits are altered because I feel the need to "save" a company.

[Titanium Dome]

[QUOTE=X_X;134624]

You sound like a guy who wants to keep the used market alive.

No, not really. I usually prefer the newer stuff. I just hate the new entry level midfi garbage that's out there trying to compete with the classics that far exceed the performance...for less money. The high end new marketplace is full of masterful products.



This is a specious argument; this same logic would imply we should only buy used cars.

I wasn't talking about cars, so the analogy is moot.


How would they (the manufacturers) know what you bought and why? Are we writing to them and stating, "I bought a used Thorens because it's better than yours, and here's why..."? I don't think too many people are doing that.

Are you serious? If I'm a turntable manufacturer (or work for one) wouldn't it be in my best interest to know something about the used turntable market? If suddenly a LINN LP12 began commanding 5 times it's cost to manufacture- guess what I'm buidling?

Simple R&D. The research aspect of that includes knowing your target market and how much that market will bear. The used marketplace is crucial to that because it lets you know what is valued. That's how you model a product.


You're in good company here, though. I think a lot of members here will agree with you that old is better than new and that constantly recycling and tweaking (with new upgrades) vintage gear is the recipe for a superior experience while running down the new stuff.

Don't act like you pegged me. That's not at all how I feel. That was rude. I didn't realize old and new were divided into two camps here. Either you are right and the average forumite is dim- or you are wrong.


Fortunately, plenty of people buy new JBL products to keep the division alive, so it works okay for all I guess.

Pat yourself some more, please. Should you be awarded something for saving the company from total destruction? Thank you, your blind loyalty is admirable. I dread the day my spending habits are altered because I feel the need to "save" a company.

You're a swell guy. Pleasure talking to you.

[louped garouv]

In my experience DJ Turntable=Destroy Record+Bad Sound Reproduction

I am interested in hearing more of this account...

what tables, were they (was it) with proper cart set up/balancing of the tonearm, etc?

I just can't see how, when properly set up, any decent TT would thrash your vinyl...