L100T Crossover in 4412

[Chris Brown]

I got a pair of 4412's earlier this year but have never really warmed up to their neutral studio monitor voicing.

Comparing them to the L100T, it's amazing that they sound so different despite the fact that they share the same 104H-2 mid and 035ti tweeter.

Is there any reason why an L100T crossover wouldn't work in the 4412? The L100T and 4412 already have the same crossover frequencies (800hz and 4.5khz). I'd do it in such a way that I could revert everything back to stock if needed - no permanent modifications.

Maybe an L80T crossover? It also uses the same mid and tweeter.

[sean19]

I got a pair of 4412's earlier this year but have never really warmed up to their neutral studio monitor voicing.

Comparing them to the L100T, it's amazing that they sound so different despite the fact that they share the same 104H-2 mid and 035ti tweeter.

Is there any reason why an L100T crossover wouldn't work in the 4412? The L100T and 4412 already have the same crossover frequencies (800hz and 4.5khz). I'd do it in such a way that I could revert everything back to stock if needed - no permanent modifications.

Maybe an L80T crossover? It also uses the same mid and tweeter.

i would try replacing the caps in the crossover dose not cost much and dose not take much time

[Chris Brown]

i would try replacing the caps in the crossover dose not cost much and dose not take much time

Well I would like the ability to return them to stock at any time for resale purposes, etc.

[Ed Kreamer]

Hi Chris:

I would not replace the crossover. Do you presently have L 100t 's? If you do you can use them as your fun/ listening speakers and you can use the 4412's as a reference pair. I did this with 4408's replacing an older 3 way system and after using the 4408's I found that I greatly prefered the 4408's. It took a while. And it depends on thetype of music you listen to. keep in mind that most pop/ rock recordings are studio creations, and that classical music occurs in real time, produced by acoustical instruments. This is not a condemnation on pop/rock, it's an observation of the process. I think living with them for a while longer would suit the situation,and you, better

What you have in the 4412 is something of something of real value as a reference tool and as a collectable item. If you decide that you would like something else better you can always find someone here or on c'list or that other place to buy them from you.

[SEAWOLF97]

Maybe an L80T crossover? It also uses the same mid and tweeter.

L80T uses virtually the same drivers as 4410 , which is a much superior speaker.

the difference ? besides box volume, it is the network. don't really think the L80T xover is anything to brag about/reuse.

[Chris Brown]

What you have in the 4412 is something of something of real value as a reference tool and as a collectable item. If you decide that you would like something else better you can always find someone here or on c'list or that other place to buy them from you.

Well like I said before one criteria I have is that I won't be making any permanent modifications. It wouldn't take me more than 15 minutes to plug the stock crossovers back in, and I probably would return the speakers back to stock at some point. I know there is great resistance among many here to making modifications to stock JBL designs and generally I feel the same way. This thread was never intended to break open that pandora's box of entrenched opinions, but simply a technical inquiry as to if it would work or not.

Swapping the crossover represents a cheap, easy, quick, and 100% reversible change that has the potential to turn something I don't currently enjoy listening to, into something I do enjoy listening to. Why wouldn't I want to give it a shot?

If nothing else, every single driver in the 4412 is a potential spare part for my L100Ts or L150s in the (hopefully distant) future, so I'm not in a huge hurry to get rid of them.

L80T uses virtually the same drivers as 4410 , which is a much superior speaker.

I'm a bit confused by this statement. Obviously the two are going to have radically different voicing, similar to the difference between the 4412 and L100T I'd imagine. Are you saying that the 4410 is superior simply because you prefer it's voicing, or do you believe there is another reason?

I know there are those who prefer the sound signature of the L80T to the 4410, and I'd probably be one of them.

Speaking of the L80T, I was just able to acquire a pair of L80T crossovers for a price cheap enough that I don't really feel I'm going to lose anything by simply trying them in the 4412s. The mounting holes seem identical between the L80T and 4412 crossovers, which is encouraging. I'll post pics of the process when I put them in.

[Chris Brown]

4412 Crossover on left, L80T Crossover on right.

I just finished swapping them out. It was easier than I thought, the hardest part being having to deal with the fiberglass in the sealed mid compartment to thread the new cables through. No permanent modifications to the 4412 were required.

I stopped after I did the left speaker, and hooked it back up, with the right still using the stock crossover so I could do a direct comparison. The difference was a lot like the difference between my 4412s and L100Ts, and I like it. There are some qualities of the 4412 that remain, which I'm guessing is more a product of the cabinet than anything. It still sounds a bit "tubby".

I'm still curious what they would have sounded like with a L100T or L100T3 crossover rather than the L80T crossovers that I used, but for now I'm liking what I'm hearing.

[Maxwelhse]

I never understood what all the chatter about the L100T/L80T being "too hot" was until I bought a real amp...

My L100Ts, with 440w/ch applied to them, just about tear Earth down. They're an amazing speaker for their original price point I'm glad, every day, that I bought them. With a boatload of power, they are completely inspiring speakers. L80Ts.... Well... I'd trade 'em +$200 for a very nice set of L100Ts....

With that said, my 240Tis, with half the power behind them, sound much-much better. The L100T is, in fact, very very very "bright" when played at reference levels. The L80T (I own 2 pairs) is a complete pile of garbage when compared to the L100T and it gets even worse when compared to an 044TI speaker. I can't imagine a world where someone going after a custom crossover solution would chose either an L100T or L80T stock crossover as their avenue.

I used to think the pundits were crazy when speaking of the "brightness" of the LXXT series when I had only weak AVR power running to mine (I don't mean to convey insult, but your 200w/ch Yamaha is barely scratching the surface of the architectures' capability). My tune has since changed... They're too bright from the factory and there is a reason why there was a crossover revision in the "3" series.

Much like you, I have no intentions of modifying my speakers to an unoriginal form in an irreversible way. However, there are people on here (not me, I'm a listener, not an electrical engineer) that can guide you to the perfect crossover for your rig if you're able to build it.

------

I do absolutely adore my L100Ts, despite their faults, and the 4412 is very very similar. I can't imagine how a L100T or L80T crossover is going to help your 4412s... But... If what you've done makes you happy, then that's all that matters! I'd be curious to hear your thoughts should you ever double your power though...

[Chris Brown]

I can't imagine a world where someone going after a custom crossover solution would chose either an L100T or L80T stock crossover as their avenue.

Well I was never after a "custom" crossover solution really, I was trying to take advantage of the fact that the L100T/L80T crossover was already designed for 2/3 of the drivers in the 4412, while keeping everything JBL, and simple to install.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts should you ever double your power though...

When I got my C-80 preamp, one of the first things I did was utilize it's inverted pre-outs to run both of my Yamaha P2201 amps bridged. A bridged P2201 is good for 600-700wpc into 8-ohms. Not sure if that qualifies as a "boatload of power" or not

I tried each of my speakers with that amp config. At least in my listening room (which I'll admit is not huge), it was not really an improvement. Even when running the amps in stereo, with "only" 230-240wpc available to the speakers, I hit the limits of the woofers before I run out of amplifier power. The woofers making a loud "pop" as the voice coil slams into the pole piece can ruin a good night of music listening quickly, but unfortunately increasing my power to the speakers doesn't help me with that problem.

[Maxwelhse]

Well I was never after a "custom" crossover solution really, I was trying to take advantage of the fact that the L100T/L80T crossover was already designed for 2/3 of the drivers in the 4412, while keeping everything JBL, and simple to install.

I appreciate your approach as a minimalist myself. But... Crossovers aren't that hard to build if you've got some patience, a soldering iron, and an excellent technical resource (such as this forum, not me in this case) to help! I think going that route, and selling your stock JBL stuff off, would be more rewarding.

When I got my C-80 preamp, one of the first things I did was utilize it's inverted pre-outs to run both of my Yamaha P2201 amps bridged. A bridged P2201 is good for 600-700wpc into 8-ohms. Not sure if that qualifies as a "boatload of power" or not

Indeed it does, Sir! I retract my previous statement (sorta... You didn't notice how "hot" the LXXXT crossover is at that power level?)...

I tried each of my speakers with that amp config. At least in my listening room (which I'll admit is not huge), it was not really an improvement. Even when running the amps in stereo, with "only" 230-240wpc available to the speakers, I hit the limits of the woofers before I run out of amplifier power. The woofers making a loud "pop" as the voice coil slams into the pole piece can ruin a good night of music listening quickly, but unfortunately increasing my power to the speakers doesn't help me with that problem.

My listening room isn't that big either, (15'w x 40'l.. listening positions are withing 10 feet of the mains w/surrounds about 2' behind) but going from my "maybe" 80w/ch AVR, to my absolutely 200W/ch separate amp, then to my 440w/ch separate amp, was an impressive difference to the extent that each step couldn't be ignored.

Moving past that, my L100Ts eat up 440/Ch like southern fried catfish... No pops (though I wasn't playing Easy-E or Bass Mekanic when I tried it.... Phil Collins - Face Value / No Jacket Required... Both albums completely hung my jaw agape) and it was nothing but insane. My Sherbourn 5-200 (Emotiva XPA-5) is 200W/ch and has also never resulted in an over extension pop, but it has popped a 15A breaker more than once (the 440/ch Crown will do it in under 5 minutes... It's already on a different 20A line... I need to drop a few more).

Anyhow.. This is all getting pretty off topic and for that I am sorry. The punchline is that I encourage you to seek out a custom crossover solution if you're interested in deviating from the stock arrangement. You clearly have enough power available to play the speakers as intended no matter what route you choose.