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Thread: Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!

  1. #31
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    "A lower dcr choke doesn't work thats why I asked G T."

    In what respect doesn't it work?

  2. #32
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    The bass sound strange, not boomy as such and masked the midrange would have required a reduction in real volume of the box which did not appeal to me.

    So I simply inserted a small value of dc resistance with the choke and bingo. the whole system snapped into line.

    Ian

  3. #33
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    Oh yeah, I remember that conversation

  4. #34
    PSS AUDIO
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    Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Yes, it is a complex tricky business, but thats where the black art and romance begins.

    Ian
    Hello Ian,

    It's better that black art begins rather than black mail...

    As you are in Australia, even if Melbourne is not that close to Sydney, if you are interested in, you can get in touch with my good friend Billy Mawer from NTC and I am sure he will lend you a PSS amplifier he loves for their sound quality, as out of all the A/B tests he makes, the winner is always the same one (ask him for a 9D amplifier it is the latest model, he will have some by 10 days time)...

    The winner claims that a damping factor of 100/150 is good enough.

    I let you guess what is the brand of this amplifier!

    If ever this test is achieved I think that quite good numbers will be interested reading your impressions!

    If you want to get in touch with NTC, please read their address:

    NETWORK ENTERTAINEMENT
    Unit 2 98 Old Pittwater road
    Brookvale
    2100 NSW

    Phone : + 61 2 9905 5997
    Fax : + 61 2 9905 9440
    Contact : Billy MAWER
    Email : [email protected]
    http://www.network-et.com

  5. #35
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    Wow Yuri,

    I 'll follow this up,

    Thankyou

    Ian

  6. #36
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    I just checked www.pssaudio.com and wasn't able to find a distributor in the U.S.A.

  7. #37
    PSS AUDIO
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    Originally posted by Giskard
    I just checked www.pssaudio.com and wasn't able to find a distributor in the U.S.A.
    Unfortunately at the time being we have none!

    We are seeking for a "small" distributor, if one of you are in touch with someone interested in please let me know!

  8. #38
    Senior Member MikeM's Avatar
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    Amplifier specs

    Dis regard amp specs for the most part. Usally the amps with the highest distortion will sound better on the highend side.
    The spec Ive found to be impotant Is SLEW RATE. The speed of the ampifier Any amp that has something around 250 will have spectacular speed in transistor designs.
    Von Schweikert VR-8
    Canary Ref. 1 300B monoblocks. 300Bx16

  9. #39
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    "Damping factor, what a nonsense..."

    Ok, let's try this again... damping factor is a ratio of two numbers. Nothing nonsensical about it. Nothing spooky. No super secret spy shit decoder ring required. It's just a ratio of two numbers. Having gotten that out of the way, if a person wants to buy an amplifier based solely on some damping factor specification then they are only cheating themselves.

    "The winner claims that a damping factor of 100/150 is good enough."

    Maybe, maybe not. Some loudspeakers sound great with amps spec'd with a DF around 20. Other loudspeakers sound great with amps spec'd with a DF up to 100 or 150.

    "TRY EVERYTHING you can beg, borrow, and steal."

    Dr. Electron has posted this on another thread. This is a fact. No amount of bookreading or specification sheet reading can take the place of experience. A particular amp might sound great with one particular loudspeaker and not so great with a another loudspeaker.
    Last edited by 4313B; 08-28-2003 at 09:54 PM.

  10. #40
    Tom Roper
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    My take on this

    1.) Damping factor is the ratio of the speaker inpedance divided by the amplifier output impedance.

    2.) It is a consequence of negative feedback, or the motor's regeneration of current back to the amplfier.

    3.) So if you short the speaker terminals and push on the cone, you feel some resistance.

    4.) Damping factor is a measure of the amplifier's ability to short the speaker output.

    Example:

    A speaker has 2 ohm impedance. A damping factor of 2000 would indicate an amplifier output impedance of 1 milli-ohm. But what counts is the damping factor at the speaker input terminal, which would include the consequence of the dc resistance of the speaker cables. If I'm wrong, there's a pretty good cottage industry of monster cables living a lie.

    Conclusion:

    So the point about damping factor, specifically too much it, is that it should be easily manipulated by using longer length speaker wires, or smaller gauge to mitigate the effect of excessive damping, if it exists. If the speaker wire dc resistance was 0.1 ohm, your damping factor at the speaker input is now 20. So I'm struggling to understand why having too much damping factor in an amplifier is a problem, whereas it's obvious if you don't have enough, there's not anything you can do about it except get a new amp.

  11. #41
    Chan
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    damping factar is important but not everything

    I'm 4343B & Crown MA2402 user in japan trying to make my system be tight base sound. but, I'ts not so easy.

    proberbly,amplifier is a Key.
    Compared to another some amplifier,I think Crown MA2402 is better. The amp's D.F. ratio is 1000. but, it my be a only one aspect of the amp. That's not everything. because,amplifier K2 by crown have more greater D.F. ratio 3000. Is it more tight sound ? proberbly No! It's cofusing.

    I'm thiking the best way to get tight sound from 4343B is to use multi-4amplifier system by crown MA2402 not 3600VZ. 3600VZ have a little worm sound. 4 means brige operation.

    Speaker wires is important. A wire‚P‚T‚ƒ¶^‚ is easily compared from more grater guaged wires.Obiusly, smaller is better! but,I'ts one aspect too.

  12. #42
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    Interesting! Another 4343B owner

    I used Citation 19's with my 4343B's. Stereo Citiation 19 with passive network, bridged Citation 19's with passive network, and bi-amped Citation 19's with the 5234A. I was never inclinded to hunt more Citation 19's down to try bridged/bi-amped The DF was plenty rated at 125 (8 ohms). But that wasn't what made that amp a killer back then

    One cool feature was that the Citation 19 could dump a whopping 3.7 amperes into 8 ohms and 6.3 amperes into 4 ohms! That's nothing now, but back then it was the bomb

    Anyway...
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  13. #43
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    Re: My take on this

    Originally posted by Tom Roper
    Conclusion: ... . If the speaker wire dc resistance was 0.1 ohm, your damping factor at the speaker input is now 20. So I'm struggling to understand why having too much damping factor in an amplifier is a problem, whereas it's obvious if you don't have enough, there's not anything you can do about it except get a new amp.
    I was waiting such an answer since days and days and finally it came!

    Let me remind you that taking the same wire length with the same DC resistance with a damping factor of 200 (it means that the internal resistance is 0,01 ohm), you will then have a remaining damping factor of 18,181818181818 (2/0,11).

    Can one let me know what is the difference between a damping factor of 20 and 18,18181818?

    This means by evidence that the damping factor has no meaning at all, that it is an invented measure used by sellers ignoring that adding the internal resistance of the wire ruins all the efforts of what I do not call an engineer in electronics, I just call him a second class technician just able wiring a plug on the AC cord of this particular amplifier claiming a damping factor of 2000!

    It is the same with distortion and the memory of it like all other weird measuring tools all unable to qualify what the word sound good means!

  14. #44
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    BUT>>>

    Different amps do in fact sound different! Some amps are known for their ability to produce deep, tight, and tuneful bass! Other amps have a special magic in the midrange but dont do well at bass!

    So, if damping factor has none, if any consequence on sound quality, what does?

    We put too much emphasis on Damping factor, I agree! But it does have some significance!

  15. #45
    Tom Roper
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    If you consider 10 foot lengths of 4 awg copper wire with dc resistance of .2485 ohms/1000 ft, your net damping factor would be 573 for the amplifier and speaker wire.

    I think it matters some. To what degree is the debate. Personally, I don't bother with expensive monster speaker cables because I'm not persuaded by it.

    But amplfiers are voltage source devices. If a positive output voltage causes forward excursion of the speaker cone, when the positive output voltage is halved, the back EMF of the speaker caused by forward momentum dumps regenerative energy back to the amplifier. The amount is small because port tuning, speaker suspension provide most of the damping mechanically. The amplifier has no active control over what remains. And because the amount is small, output impedance is the only factor that causes any damping by an amplifier, and is the only parameter for an amplifier that describes damping performance. Because that number is small, it's more easily understood and compared by using the reciprocal, i.e. "damping factor."

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