Did you ever HEAR the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound system?Originally Posted by Fort Knox
They had it when I heard them at RFK stadium with the Allman Brothers in 1972
disarray isn't the word I'd use - - the sound was amazing!
And yes, it was logistically insane to transport, no doubt!
But they didn't do the low low bass some music contains these days ...
But sorry, this is a way from the "sub for DD66000" discussion ...
2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
7: TIVO, Oppo BDP103D, B&K, 2pr UREI 809A, TF600, JBL B460
I ck'd..and ACDC uses 72 EAW SB1000's in a typ sub array
but like the A7 the EAW is not designed for sub sonic bass
as it eats pwr..but granted with that much efficiency the lowest
instrument notes will be heard...good.....
as for home stereo 20hz is cool
Last edited by Fort Knox; 08-14-2013 at 04:14 AM. Reason: sp
Grateful Dead is Cool...Sorry
But I was refering to Array in the literal sense.....
speakers with a common zenth pt.
There should have been plenty of low end content in older music as music in the key of E would usually have a low E bass note quite often. 41Hz roughly. The 5 string bass, rock or orchestral, will go to B in standard tuning, 31hz ish. Depends on how and where it was recorded I guess. I usually run subs on my system as it adds quite a lot extra.
Allan.
There was. The JBL's that mattered were solid to 30 Hz and the 4350 was solid to 25 Hz. They were built that way because there was content there. And a high pass filter at 20, 25 or 30 Hz was recommended to attenuate all the garbage below (primarily TT generated).
I ran A Alesis DEQ230 in my sub amp leg... and I recommend it..
I don't recommend digital EQ's for the mains..(as they sound harsh( to me))....but @20hz the digital EQ
fits in more accuratly agianst a .. 40hz + analog EQ
Well someone needs to fix that then because it is the future.
the future IS here...for bass
this digital sub sounds like a Fender Dual Showman... in the room
(it actually adds to the transparency (even loud))
Makes sense but I'm afraid we're 20 - 30 years too late. JBL and their competition is not what it was then. There really is no DIY market anymore or at least JBL refuses to acknowledge it. JBL would rather sell you a new $60,000 system. There is a very good YouTube video of the JBL Factory ca. 1977 that no longer exists. Don't be surprised when they discontinue most if not all recone kits in the near future as well.
Well.. I share thread-starter Brians disappointment about the low end reproduction from the DD66000 with "modern" music, but first let me introduce my self:
I use to be distributing JBL K2, Everest and Synthesis in Denmark* (* 5.5 mill. people, Capitol city = Copenhagen - Northern Scandinavia) in the years 2006-2009, supported by Luc Guillaume, Harman Europe - Paris head Office, France.
Thread starter Brian actually purchased his DD66000 from me..
I have sold plenty of the K2 9800SE, 3 x Synthesis theaters price range +150.000 US$, and few pairs of the DD66000 during my period as distributor. Fine figures according to the population of our country, especially since nobody did any efforts to sell the high-end stuff in the years before my entrance.
But in 2009 Harman closed the Paris office, and without any logic reason my business agreement with Paris was wiped away by a now "former*" Harman Europe/London sales boss "Andy Baker" (*who later was executed from the Harman company - in VERY bad standing..), and my entire business was handed over to the danish Mark Levinson and Lexicon distributors (www.steensen.dk and www.htp.dk)...
This was a really bad act against me, a steal, and Mr. Baker are in my opinion a simple criminal..
This doesn't change my passion for the JBL products, the JBL brand etc., but this explains my status of today; as I am "reduced" to a danish JBL Everst + K2 retailer (www.dynamax.dk).
I in person are a great fan of JBL, a great admire of Greg Timbers and his skills. The big 4300 series are THE REAL JBL from where I am coming, and second to this the MK1 (walnut) 250Ti was THE reference in home audio according to me if I was asked in the the eighties..
My complaints regarding DD66000: In my showroom; very large room aprox. 150 m2, almost 4 meter average ceiling height, few walls, many windows = no really low-end room gain), I have more low end output from a pair of 250Ti or Array 1400 than from my DD66000.
But high-freq is for sure far better from DD66000 than from the others mentioned.
What I want: I want the best of both worlds, the lovely bass from the 250ti (+ a little extra - call me bass a' hollic..:- ) + the upper freq. + dynamics from the DD66000
What to do..?
Please note: This is about personal non satisfaction from the poor low-freq. output, but also about business related frustrations: I have sold 3 pairs of DD66000 … BUT: During the years I HAVE HAD SEVERAL POTENTIAL DD66000 buyers - walking out of my door simply because they were disappointed.. They expected more bass from the dual 15" pr. speaker.. Some of them are currently owning 250ti and 4435, and they could tell by a short listening that the DD66000 sound is more bright/thin that from the JBL's in their current systems. Huh? .. what to do??
What I did: First I tried adding the Array 1500 - but it's too slow when asked to play above 30-40hz, and it doesn't blend with the DD66000 at all in standard configuration when running the DD66000 passive..
Then by adding bass via Synthesis 18" S1S-EX + digital electronics, but I feel the digital synthesis blurs the high-freq.. worse: The Syntehsis processor+SDEC costs some insane 30-40.000US$ incl. 25% danish sales tax….and my need are 2 channel - not multichannel!
Also I was not happy with the S1S-EX 18" subwoofers since they have to much Eq. via the very long vents..
Then I tried with some very expensive digital crossover and equalizer from www.accuphase.com .. dedicated 2-channel, still getting blurred the high-freq...
Finally I decided going all the old-school analog "B-460 way" by building some very large enclosures (dual 18" pr. channel), purchasing some low Fs + light mms woofers from ElectroVoice (EVX180B) - much similar to the 2242H (2242H goes deeper and handles more power but the EVX-180B blends better in the 60Hz area.. ), then adding electronic crossover + eq. (boost) of the low freq.!
Now it works!
Further: I have been designing an electronic crossover 24dB/oct., specifically for the DD66000 vs. my subwoofers named "Everest EX" (EX for extension), as my need is rather an bass extension than a true subwoofer. In order to upgrade my DD66000 to the closest possible 67000 sound (I have auditioned the 67000 in Hong Kong), I am now crossing over the DD66000 by 24/24 dB/Oct. rather than the factory made 12/18dB. Also I moved crossing over point from 750 to 800hz, adding an 1 or 2 dB option (pass through are possible) boost at 700-800Hz in order to compensate for the AL1501 high-freq. roll-off.
On top of that I have a 4-5kHz 1+2 dB (pass through are possible) notch filter build in, a 20kHz boost option.
With the above adjustments I can tailer the sound the way I wanted it, and also by going active the Everest performance are increased*. * Note; my home designed analog crossover are fully discrete design, no IC's no OP-amps, no volume controls in the mid-bass and high-freq. signal path.
But of highest importance:
1: My Extension enclosures are designed to fold around the Everest in order not to become 30-40 inches deep like some dual 18" PA-enclosures at 500 liters, and they are designed with same front baffle angle and acoustic phase in between the EX + Everest drivers.! (Natures low of physics..)
2: By nature the EVX180B woofers are rolling of at 45Hz similar to the AL1501 - despite enclosure volume are 500 liters.., but with 2 x 18" pr. channel I have enough surface and "engine" power to add a gentle boost. Thats made by a variable (3, 6, 9 dB) gain at 28hz similar to the drivers Fs. To fine tune I have 0 to +6dB gain (volume) obtained by the gain diff. from single to balanced (my filters are balanced design). Finally I decided 2 crossover points 45 and 60 Hz in order to meet the variation in music material this flexibility are of highest importance. READ: Some recordings must be added bass from 60Hz and down, others are getting to blurred by a 60hz bump, and needs the lower crossing over point (45hz).
What I got:
"EAR"-Flat system response to almost 25Hz, instead of the DD66000 factory dialed-in 45Hz roll-off, and the possibility to add or lower the low-bass according to taste and music.. A cleaner and faster upper freq. from the 15" were it is crossed over to the 4" Be. = increased "body" in very upper bass/very low midrange. So far so good - but I am not satisfied with the DD66000 mid as I have more male voice body on the 250ti? - any suggestions???
Despite the missing male voice body - this is all together (mildly explained), extending the overall experience from my "modified" Everest system into a level that exceeds the experience from the factory DD66000 speakers by a far margin.!
Reason: This is not only about bass you can hear, but also bass you can fell (30-45hz). More impact to the experience! And especially the extra "black" background thats added behind the entire frequency range from the very lowest hz by boosting via my Extension, is elevating the entire listening experience. Once you have auditioned my system, you will miss something from your "standard" DD66000! Big words, but you are welcome for a cup of coffee and try it out
Best thing: It's all made by "common sence", fully analog, no digitally hocus-pocus, no room correction costing XX thousands of dollars. Easy to set-up and easy to dial in - don't need to pay a "sound-enginer" a fortune to get the sound coming through.. Thats what regular 2 channel music lovers but no-billionaire-people like thread starter "Brian" they want.!
Important note: This project of mine is still at prototype level! Several other woofers than the EVX-180B are tried. The EVX are doing fine as the 2242H did, but they are not perfect! Especially my focus has been on neodymium models of different brands, but I found all the neo-stuff hard to play "low" but very good at loud.. I am testing new 18" drivers in the near future, and for sure I will report here whats going to be best choice.
Also the home made electronics (dual mono 3 ways crossovers + EQ) are at "proto-type" level, simply because I don't have the money needed to make a final development (including high-end finish at eclosures+CE approval testings at the electronics etc.).
A few pictures should have been uploaded below - but for reasons I don't know I didn't get permission??
Look here for pictures: http://dynamax.dk/everest-ex/
Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
Greetings, Henrik,
Many thanks for that illuminating post, and for detailing your experiences on this topic!! Well written, and very informative, Sir. The DD66,000 is way out of my league, but I know that others who either have them, or plan to acquire them, will find your comments and solutions to be very helpful. Thank you for sharing this with us all, and well done on your testing and solutions. Take care, and God Bless!
Every Good Wish,
Doc
The only thing that can never be taken away from you, is your honor. Cherish it, in yourself, and in others.
Gee, I was lusting after the DD6600/6700 but now . . . I guess I can die happy with my 4345 and nearly-new-in-box 250Ti.
". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers
Oh yeah, the new-kid on the JBL block . . . and the future of speakers. Now I can continue to aspire!
Is Don still enjoying his? Probably too much so to take time to write! That would be good news.
". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers
Hmm... many people are happy with their Bose tabletop Wave radios too.Gee, I was lusting after the DD6600/6700 but now . . . I guess I can die happy with my 4345 and nearly-new-in-box 250Ti.
I found the review above interesting and I can understand where it comes from, however my experience has led me to a different conclusion. I am using a new Revel B112 to augment the very bottom of my DD66000s.
I absolutely agree with 4313B's M2 comment. The very best deep bass I ever heard at home was from the dual Project May 1500Als and Deqx DSP.
Widget
Dear Mr. BMWCCA
Glad to hear you own the 4345 and the 250Ti, that will definitely make this conversation easier.
As the passionated JBL fan I am, I played several JBL models for years; 250Ti, 250Ti + B460, L-300, 4430, 4343, 4345, K2 9800, K2 9800SE - a friend got 4350 which I am very familiar with. I was born in 1966 and are simply too young to know about the older JBL.
The latest of the former models in my house before DD66000 arrival was 250Ti (second hand trade-in), besides my personal 9800SE + 4345.
I loved the 4345 ESPECIALLY for their way of reproducing vinyl playback, which they in some matters did better than my DD66000. On the opposite i prefer the DD66000 for digital playback over the 4345. I had the 4345 for 5 years and my K2 9800SE for 5 years.
Regarding bass output from 250Ti vs. DD66000:
The 250Ti was made in the early eighties - at the same time were digital audio (cd) was introduced, and when many recording studios got access to digital effects. Synthesizers bass effects was brought into popular music. In europe we loved listening to "ear candy" from Dire Straits, Level 42, Depeche Mode, Frankie Goes To Hollywood and psychedelic soft rock from Pink Floyd/Roger Waters. Much of this music content low bass effects (30-40Hz) - as it is the artist intension to ad drama to his "picture of music" by painting with his 30-40hz brush..
The 250Ti rendering of the artist "music picture" in the low bass region was reference class to me back then, the 250Ti was the speaker other speakers was judged against. So with the DD66000. Even in a regular sized listening room the 250Ti has more "impact" at the 30-40hz than the DD66000 when measured by ears. Now try measure by a computer; spl from DD66000 in 30-40Hz are the same, or perhaps higher. Even output to 20Hz are to be measured from the DD66000 - whats going on?
Well, my guess are the high-freq from DD66000 are louder than the rest, opposite from the 250Ti.
Invitation regarding to your post at this thread:
If you really ever consider to purchase DD66000 or DD67000 - an 60K$ investment i guess ( I don't know DD67000 retail in the US - can anybody tell me?), do your self a favor; spend 1.000 Us$ in an air plane ticket US-Copenhagen-return, I will pay for your overnight stay, and come and listen to my DD66000 with and with out my dual 18" EXtensions.
Then go back to this forum and tell everybody what you just discovered.
I am VERY happy with my DD66000 - but only by adding my dual 18" bass EXtensions, I get the full potential from my DD66000.!
Reason;
1: This is not ONLY a matter of extra bass, but an upgrade of the entire soundstage when extra bass are added!
2: Also that you got the information in the music that the artist wan't you to hear AND FEEL.
3: Last thing are important - as much can be heard from the DD66000 but not felt!
M2 is another issue; I was to a M2 demo by the JBL Pro distributor this summer; impressive YES FOR SURE - but my own system outcompetes the M2 in some aspects and the M2 outcompetes the DD66000 in other aspects. I think it is wrong to compare those two speaker designs at all, taken into consideration the M2 is controlled by the BBX/Crown electronics opposite the passive DD66000.
Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
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