Sub for Everest DD66000.

[speakerdave]

Starting to feel like people are going to talk past each other forever here.

[Ducatista47]

The pushback from my post told me I needed to read much more of this thread than I had before responding. Henrik, sorry to have made you repeat yourself for the fourth or more(th) time. Bass-Extension is an interesting concept, I agree. I will stand by my observation that the E2 family of speakers is a dubious choice if strong performance in the LF range is an important consideration, especially in large spaces. (EDIT: A True expert on these matters has observed this is not properly stated. Perhaps I should have said that the E II is not flat to 20Hz.)

If I unjustly implied you are a basshead (to me meaning one who wants to hear more bass than is on the source material), again I apologize. It is just that there are so many! At the site HeadFi, it is the majority. It is not a rare species on any website related to JBL floorstanders. That is called understatement.

I am curious why you are not employing room treatment to any extent. it should - this is not an opinion - be applied before any electronic or mechanical remedies are used. As every speaker has its inherent limitations. so does every listening space. Endless modifications to the speaker and processing will not change the room limitations, but treatment can. Since the speaker can never surpass the rooms capabilities, treatment must come first and will simplify and enhance the results of any remedial reproduction system work.

I also agree that no matter what music you listen to, judging the reproduction of it without frequent reference to live, unamplified music is hopelessly unhelpful. You would be trying to establish a baseline with no stable point of reference. It doesn't work.

You may be wondering who I am to venture such observations. Since you have told us about you and where you are coming from... Having been born in 1947, I have the first hand knowledge of an intently interested listener of music reproduction who has experience from the mid 1950s on. My father was an engineer at Shure Brothers. On several occasions I worked with John Cage. With the exception of my 4345s I have constructed my own speaker enclosures, with the goal of a better than stock performance through superior, meaning more appropriate materials when available and improvements in design where possible. I prefer my Les Paul, old heavy model, through my original Mesa Boogie (Dymo labels on the backplate, look it up) to the Marshall sound. I prefer the 200W EVM speaker to the JBL I replaced with it, and this after spending extra for the JBL from Randall himself. I do learn. I like and demand reasonable bass reproduction and know it when I hear it because of playing my 1965 Jazz Bass, and from thousands of hours of being ten feet or less from brilliant musicians playing amplified and unamplified instruments. Much of this with no PA.

And...what do I listen to? Let's take just the last few days. PJ Harvey, a lot to be frank. Coltrane's Interstellar Space. Julie Fowlis, Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh, Karen Kasey, Karine Polwart. The Paybacks. The Murmurs. Un Hun Her. Bill Evans. The Breeders. The Coors. Berlin. Ralph Towner. Barbara Dennerlein. Richard Thompson. Great Northern. Glenn Gould and Paul Jacobs playing solo piano of Bach, Debussey and Arnold Schoenberg. Cowboy Junkies. Little Dragon. ZZ Top, Tejas and Rhythmeen. Suicide. Sun Ra. Fairport Convention. Sandy Denny solo. Robbie Robertson. Purity Ring. Memory Cassette. Sonic Youth. KT Tunstall. The Pretenders. Sam Rivers. Concrete Blonde, and Johnette Napolitano solo too. Cindy Combs. Cat Power. Brad Mehldau. Beth Orton. Albert Schweitzer. Dexter Gordon. And more...

Not much Classic Rock. Most of it, after much listening and time passing, is at the best no better to my ears than the best of the last twenty years.

While I am at this point often a been there and done that (and doing it) person, I am far, far from the most experienced and knowledgeable poster here. On the low end of it, actually. The only advice I would give to less experienced posters here, not you specifically, is to listen more and venture fewer opinions. I often take that advice myself, but apparently not often enough.

[4313B]

the E2 family of speakers is a dubious choice if strong performance in the LF range is an important consideration, especially in large spaces.

Wrong!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

I other words, a person has to know what they are doing. The Everest II has some of the best low frequency reproduction on the planet. Period.

G.T. is thoroughly familiar with the Everest II low frequency response versus the low frequency response of typical legacy JBL systems. If he'd wanted them to sound like a pair of bloated 4355's he would have asked J.M. to redesign the 1501AL's to behave in that fashion. The Everest II enclosure and tuning were designed along with the 1501AL transducers as a fully functional, well integrated system.

"Tell them to turn their ******* loudness buttons on..."

[Mr. Widget]

Starting to feel like people are going to talk past each other forever here.

+1

I think there are more interesting things to do than responding to people who refuse to hear or be open to alternative views... especially when the facts contradict their views.


Widget

[pos]

"Tell them to turn their ******* loudness buttons on..."

I think I found my new signature!

[DynaMax]

Dear 4313B

I really like your sense of humor despite you are doing all you can stepping on me. But you can't insult me, and off course you and Widget respond to me like you are doing. IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY. Laws off nature.

Regarding your link to the cut from Clint Eastwood movie, I consider my self as Dirty Harry, and you and Widget sitting in the blue car - with the rest of Harman management :-) Don't get me wrong, it's all meant in a gentle manner, a respond in the same language as you are talking to me.

But I am serious; and here is why:

From Harman premium product lines i noticed that the JBL Array line got is own sub (Array 1500), the JBL Synthesis got it's S1S-EX (based on JBL 2242H). The Revel got it's Rhythm 2 (based on JBL 2269H) - picture below.



Now just try to accept the value of some might wish a sub developed to match the K2 (could be a single 18") and the same for E2 (could be dual 18").

And until that happens a lot of potential K2 and E2 buyers continue to turn their back to the product, and instead place their money in - lets say a pair of MAGICO or TAD speakers, and money who actually was pointed to Harman goes to it's competitors. But you guys don't get it because you won't, and with blinded eyes you continues your drive in the blue car screaming and yelling with a measure at the E2 showing it's output capabilities at 20Hz…...

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

[4313B]

Dear 4313B I really like your sense of humor despite you are doing all you can stepping on me.

I just don't like misinformation. I'm not going to dig back through these Everest II threads to pick it all out now. Suffice it to say, I think a few people are lacking in some fundamentals.

Regarding your link to the cut from Clint Eastwood movie, I consider my self as Dirty Harry, and you and Widget sitting in the blue car - with the rest of Harman management :-) Don't get me wrong, it's all meant in a gentle manner, a respond in the same language as you are talking to me.

It wasn't that deep. It is exactly what it is, a person has to know their limitations. Some things are beyond some people and that is why they hire someone else with expertise in a particular field area.

But I am serious; and here is why:

From Harman premium product lines i noticed that the JBL Array line got is own sub (Array 1500), the JBL Synthesis got it's S1S-EX (based on JBL 2242H). The Revel got it's Rhythm 2 (based on JBL 2269H) - picture below.

Now just try to accept the value of some might wish a sub developed to match the K2 (could be a single 18") and the same for E2 (could be dual 18").

Again, if Harman could make money on it then they'd do it. Besides, when the Everest II is used in an HT setting Harman already has all kinds of subs available. Again, the Everest II doesn't need subwoofers for normal music playback. It just doesn't. And that goes back to the "knowing limitations" part.

And until that happens a lot of potential K2 and E2 buyers continue to turn their back to the product, and instead place their money in - lets say a pair of MAGICO or TAD speakers, and money who actually was pointed to Harman goes to it's competitors.

I really don't think anyone cares.

But you guys don't get it because you won't, and with blinded eyes you continues your drive in the blue car screaming and yelling with a measure at the E2 showing it's output capabilities at 20Hz…...

There is nothing "to get" here. That's the whole point.

The bottom line is that you simply do not understand the system design. What you need to do is replace those 1501AL's in your Everest II's with some W15GTi's and call it a day. You will need to tweak the passive networks a bit but since you are such an expert in all this you should be able to make that happen during your lunch hour.


One more time, the Everest II shares the same fundamental tuning frequency as many of the large format JBL systems of the past fifty some years. 4331, 4333, L300, L250, L220, L150, 250Ti, 4343, 4345, etc., they are all around 30 Hz. Where the Everest II differs is in the response curve, it is gently sloped to allow for greater integration in a typical room. For example, in a smaller room the Everest II would sound just right whereas most of the legacy systems would require a bit of EQ cut on the bottom end so as to not sound so "full". Now... some people have grown accustomed to that "full" sound so the Everest II might seem lean at first listening. It isn't, it's "normal". Think of the Everest II low frequency response akin to a Bessel response whereas the legacy JBL's were more along the lines of a quasi-Butterworth third order to Butterworth fourth order. Example: The ancient B380 and B460 subwoofers were quasi-Butterworth third order systems without the BX-63 and quasi-Butterworth fifth order systems with the BX-63 (26 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 2 (6 dB boost @ 26 kHz))

Reference the now ancient 5234A:

a Flat frequency response
b 20 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.707 (Butterworth)
c 20 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 2 (6 dB boost @ 20 kHz)
d 30 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.54
e 30 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.84
f 30 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q= 2 (6 dB boost @ 30 Hz)
g 40 Hz high pass filter 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.707 (Butterworth)
h 40 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q= 2 (6 dB boost @ 40 Hz)


Note the bump filters. In a larger room the Everest II might benefit from selection f. No big spooky mystery here. JBL does the exact same thing with the brand new M2 and the Crown. In the case of the M2 though the Crown is set to +4.7 dB at 22.5 Hz. Of course the Crown sounds light years better than the now ancient 5234A. The Crown is the better bet on so many levels it isn't even worth discussing. Even the "cheap" $700 Crown with the DSP functions. As G.T. has said numerous times now "Add in a few dB of boost around system resonance as desired." It is that ******* simple.

[4313B]

I think I found my new signature!

Yeah... it's like talking to a herd of cats...

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, All,

4313B, I totally understand what you are saying, and again, I have to reiterate that some folks, God Bless 'em, just don't want to hear the actual answer, and will not be satisfied until the LH forum, as a whole, decides to denigrate the original design of the DD66000. That, of course, is not going to happen, and for and brilliant reason that it is simply not true!! So, we have gone around and around, and in and out, and have still not "convinced" those who started down this path that their assertions are incorrect. You, and a few others, have done a stellar job in attempting to educate us all on this topic, but the old adage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", comes to mind. All the education in the world is never going to change the fact that, when someone is trying to prove an incorrect assertion, they will never "understand" the actual answers, or even if they understand them, they will never be willing to accept them.

Finally, I love the look of Henrik's "bass extension" setup, and for him, and others who desire such an animal, I say, go for it! But, for such folks, please don't try to kick dirt on a stellar design, like the DD66000, just because it doesn't do what YOU want it do, and in the way you want it done. Each of us has our individual likes and dislikes, and sometimes we try to get a certain sound out of a system that was not designed to offer it. 4313B has offered simply, and workable solutions to you getting what you want out of this wonderful system, without all the fuss and muss. You, Henrik, have designed and built something that works for you, and it looks lovely and works great, for your needs. I suggest that others, who want that same "solution", add similar "bass extensions" to their own systems, and call it a done deal. For me, I'd LOVE to own and enjoy a DD66000 system, but that will never happen, as we simply cannot afford it! We love our L300's, and are happy as clams in experimenting with a 4-way JBL system, and now some L250's. Some might think that, even the L300's might be a bit bass heavy in our listening room. Not me. As a drummer, I like having solid and tight bass in the music I enjoy, WHEN the music calls for it, and to my ears, the L300's give me just that, and add nothing more. But, you, and maybe others, still might not like the way my L300's sound in our listening environment. That's just as it should be! I think that your discontent with the supposed lack of LF by the DD66000 is an individual perception, and you have dealt with it in a way that works for you. Others who feel as you do can do the same, if they wish. But, the simply fact remains that the DD66000 system has garnered glowing reviews and reports from all over the world, and the design does not need to be changed, in any way. Just my thoughts on this, and I thank 4313B, Widget, and others for trying to accomplish the impossible, by changing someone's mind, with the facts. Well done, Gentlemen!! Henrik, well done on your "solution", and I'm very happy that it works for you! However, if you get tired of having to deal with all that, simply pack up your DD66000, and send it over to me, minus the "bass extension"!! I will happily take it off your hands, and give it a loving and appreciative home here in our mountains!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[ivica]

..... Music is entertainment, either live or reproduced via speakers like the E2. MJ was one the globes biggest music entertainers, best selling's recordings etc., and nobody in this thread can be taken serious if they respond to me like "Sorry - E2 are not for MJ type of music". The E2 system is actually one of the very few system in the world that are capable of reproducing the dynamics from MJ's music, thats why they remain in my living room, but they definitely needs serious assistance from 45Hz and down in a large room like mine. Lucky me I managed to build this assistant EXteneions needed, but sad for those who can't. Kind regards Henrik, DynaMax

Hi DynaMax,

I can agree with You that DD66k would need some bass extension ( in 2pi==half space, or 4pi==open space) from the mentioned 30~50 Hz, that can be seen from the JBL published data. So applying a proper "ultra low" bass would improve that, even I am sure that appropriated filter section that would be applied (passive) would not be easy to realize. ( I have expected that a pair of DD66k have been intended to be used with the single stereo amp). from the technical data presented by JBL it seems that 2269 driver(s) would be good candidate as it has the lowest 2nd and 3rd distortion factor in the mentioned region ( under 50Hz) from all of the JBL drivers. The problem can be it sensitivity vs DD66k sensitivity.

But I have not seen your comment on my post "104" regards Ivica

[pos]

Interesting comparison, thanks Ivica.
Where did you get those curves from?

The 2269H distortion curves are quite close to the 1501AL-1 ones:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post339115

Not bad for a 15"

[ivica]

Interesting comparison, thanks Ivica. Where did you get those curves from? The 2269H distortion curves are quite close to the 1501AL-1 ones: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post339115 Not bad for a 15"

Hi POS,
All that data are from the JBL : "JBL_-_Tech_Note_Vol_1_No_34_Differential_Drive_for_VerT ec_Subwoofer_Applications"
As I have remembered, 1501AL-1 is under-hung so, its VC is always in the magnetic field, so it would be expected to produce low THD.
It seems to me, that 1501AL-1 is even better then 2265 ( 15-inch dual-differential Ne-Driver) up to 500Hz.

regards
ivica

[baldrick]

2258h:

[Aaron]

Below around 80 or 90Hz I'm deaf in one ear (all frequencies above that my ears are equal) so things actually still sound clear to me with significant bass boost.
I bi-amp my L96s & SUB1500s with a DBX223 at 45Hz and a Behringer feedback destroyer pro in line the LF amp for room mode corrections. The in room response measures six DB higher than the L96s from 40 to 10Hz and I like it a lot...I also accept that no one else will like it.

If your ears are effed like mine, you might wanna try something like this if you get the chance.

[DynaMax]

To Ducatista47

Sorry for my late reply to your questions.

I don't think room treatment (by canceling standing waves.?) will help me adding more LF-bass. Except if i decided to bring in some concrete walls in the middle of my very large listening room, in order to reduce the size of the room = adding more standing waves/room gain . As mentioned earlier my room are very big (total 200m2 (2200sq-feet?) and listening area are 50% = 8 x 14 meter (26 x 46 feet?) + many openings (glass windows + doors) around the area. Also the very heavy wooden floor in the listening area you can see at my pictures (made of 3" x 12" mahogany bolted to a steel construction at a total of 9000 kilo) are actually elevated 80cm (31 inches) from the concrete foundation floor, and I guess the room in between the concrete and the heavy wood floor acts like a bass absorber rather than generating bass as if the E2 speakers was positioned directly at the concrete floor. As told in a reply to Mr. Widget my room are very close to anechoic chamber.. The positive thing about that is a very thight bass.

My listening position are far from the middle of the large room (actually just 10 feet away from the speakers with 30 feet to the wall/ceiling behind me). The E2's are installed with 16-17 feet from tweeter to tweeter and toe-in are about 20 or 30 degrees. This listening position gives me a huge soundstage, as well as great imaging/depth in soundstage. Note: since nothing (equipment racks, television, big furniture etc.) are mugged-up in between the speakers I have a pretty "clean" soundstage.

My benefits from the large room are freedom from rear wall bass gain and freedom from MF+HF listening fatigue as typical when listening position are right next to a wall, but greater MF+HF ambience (kind of natural surround sound) as distance to rear wall, rear-side wall, rear ceiling, are 8-10 meters (26-33 feet). Also note (IMPORTANT) my ceiling are opposite V-shape (angled 20 degree), with highest point (15 feet from concrete floor) in the middle of the 46 feed "deep" listening area. This = no standing wave between floor and ceiling add typical for rooms with parallel floor/ceiling. My own concert hall..

Conclusion: I have so many benefits from the design of my room in order to make sound reproduction close to live performance, and the MF-HF capabilities (qualities) from the E2 is obvious for for every body who has auditioned my "sound", but the only downside are, that a room this size and the chosen positioning of the speakers are amplifying the "weakness" of the E2 (45Hz roll-off). This is why I am calling for LF supplement*, and ended up doing my EXtensions

*Read more in the following post to Ivica

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk