Sub for Everest DD66000.

[DynaMax]

Dear Ivica.

Sorry I forgot to reply to your post #104.

Please note I am - opposite you - a non-educated sales person.. I am NOT an electronic or an acoustic engineer, or even not an skilled speaker designer + builder. All I am doing is based on "common sense" thinking, and I picked-up just a little knowledge (experience) here and there during the last two decades by reading and listening. When I wan't something done such as developing the electronic controllers for my "EX", I pay an engineer to do it, based on my notes from listening test and simple measuring.. Off course this has a been heavy and time consuming job to me, but since there are no "ready to buy LF solution" for the E2, I did the best I could. I should really love to audition a system similar to mine but fine-tuned by GT and his team.. wow!

As you can read in my above post, my large listening room calls for LF extension. When designing my system I used an Digital "Voicing" Eq from Accuphase (DG-38), and the read out at the display told me 30Hz from DD66000 in my listening position and 10-12 different mic. positions on and off-axis was minus 6-9 dB from linear (zero), and to the sound I preferred minus 12-15dB.

My goal was flat response to 30Hz but compared to preferred sound I ended up needing additional 6-9dB from 40 down to 30Hz on top of "flat" before getting satisfied..? Hopefully you know what I mean. Measuring looks crazy (loudness on..), but it sounds "right". This is why I am talking about the non linearity of human hearing must be the reason to my wish for additional 6-9dB gain at 30-40Hz. I know human hearing flattens out when going loud.. but I can't express my self in this discussion due to my limited english langue skills. Sorry.

Regarding your comments about the impossibility into design and build a speaker thats linear to 20Hz, using 18" LF + a very low cross over point by passive components, some kind of adjustment will be needed, etc; you are right.

Also I will make Widget and 4313B happy by confirming one important thing; At some music (natural instrumentation), I'll never (or very very seldom) need my LF-EXtensions. But at much electronic music I can't live without LF Extension + boost.

And the core thing in construction my system is not building the big boxes with the dual 18" pr. channel, but developing the "brains" - the dual mono 3 way electronic crossovers/eq's I got designed especially to my system.

They are very very important since music material changes from one record to another = flexibility are needed. I designed an 3-option solution:

E2 full-range with EXtension's "Off", a 45 and a 60Hz cross-over point. (24/24dB/octave).

Further more a 4-position (0,3,6,9dB) boost option at 28Hz (Fs of my 18" woofers), with a narrow Q (0,7), since I don't want the "loudness" type of sound from lets say a Q 2.0

Finally I got a 0 to +6dB variable volume at LF out-put (but NO volumes/attenuator at MF + HF out in order to avoid this in signal chain).

Via the Accuphase DG-38 I measured a notch from 700 to 800Hz, and decided to move cross-over point from 750 to 800Hz in order to boost the Al1501-1 +2dB safely against the 4" Be. I changed slopes (the passive internal filter setting = 12/18dB at 750Hz) to 800Hz 24/24dB to further protection of the 4" Be as I am adding a 1+2 dB boost option from 700-800Hz as compensation to the AL1501-1

Via the Accuphase I also measured an 1- 1,5 dB peak at around 5kHz and added a 1-2dB notch-option at 5kHz, and finally a 3-6dB boost option at 20kHz as i measured a 3-6dB drop from the 1" Be vs. the 4" Be. (All of those EQ's can be passed through).

I think it is very obvious that any LF system intended for use with the E2 is some kind based on a variable electronic crossover + EQ controller in order to adjust LF to the specific listening room, and in my particular situation it was also obvious to go all-in by making a 3 way crossover as I noticed the E2 benefits a lot when upgrading from passive to electronic crossing over between 15" and 4".

Below pictures of my system "brains" (prototypes in raw MDF box). They are fully discrete designs (no "IC", no OP-amp), pure class A.

2269H: It is no secret thats my dream woofer! But the local JBL pro distributer is asking $2200/each spare part price = my total driver cost ? $8800…... Pretty insane! US JBL PRO-retailer Northern Sound and Light made me an offer at ASB-7128 (dual 2269H) for $3350/box. Thats telling me the drivers shouldn't cost more than 1000-1200$/each. Sponsor wanted , or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

[4313B]

Thats telling me the drivers shouldn't cost more than 1000-1200$/each.

$1,064 each.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Nice room!

Wow, a war of words not seen for a while..LOL

It might be useful to look at the reverb time of your large room with suitable measurement equipment.

I recall 30- years when I was hiring out my 4343 clones they had awesome bass in some rooms but was bass shy in others.

So I used additional 2235 bins to fill the bass void bi amped with about 1.6 Kw.

I then heard the 4343 in a large acoustic theater used for live concerts at a local university.

No additional woofers needed here and the reproduction was perfectly balanced without any Eq.

[ivica]

Dear Ivica.

Sorry I forgot to reply to your post #104.

Please note I am - opposite you - a non-educated sales person.. I am NOT an electronic or an acoustic engineer, or even not an skilled speaker designer + builder. All I am doing is based on "common sense" thinking, and I picked-up just a little knowledge (experience) here and there during the last two decades by reading and listening. When I wan't something done such as developing the electronic controllers for my "EX", I pay an engineer to do it, based on my notes from listening test and simple measuring.. Off course this has a been heavy and time consuming job to me, but since there are no "ready to buy LF solution" for the E2, I did the best I could. I should really love to audition a system similar to mine but fine-tuned by GT and his team.. wow!

As you can read in my above post, my large listening room calls for LF extension. When designing my system I used an Digital "Voicing" Eq from Accuphase (DG-38), and the read out at the display told me 30Hz from DD66000 in my listening position and 10-12 different mic. positions on and off-axis was minus 6-9 dB from linear (zero), and to the sound I preferred minus 12-15dB.

My goal was flat response to 30Hz but compared to preferred sound I ended up needing additional 6-9dB from 40 down to 30Hz on top of "flat" before getting satisfied..? Hopefully you know what I mean. Measuring looks crazy (loudness on..), but it sounds "right". This is why I am talking about the non linearity of human hearing must be the reason to my wish for additional 6-9dB gain at 30-40Hz. I know human hearing flattens out when going loud.. but I can't express my self in this discussion due to my limited english langue skills. Sorry.

Regarding your comments about the impossibility into design and build a speaker thats linear to 20Hz, using 18" LF + a very low cross over point by passive components, some kind of adjustment will be needed, etc; you are right.

Also I will make Widget and 4313B happy by confirming one important thing; At some music (natural instrumentation), I'll never (or very very seldom) need my LF-EXtensions. But at much electronic music I can't live without LF Extension + boost.

And the core thing in construction my system is not building the big boxes with the dual 18" pr. channel, but developing the "brains" - the dual mono 3 way electronic crossovers/eq's I got designed especially to my system.

They are very very important since music material changes from one record to another = flexibility are needed. I designed an 3-option solution:

E2 full-range with EXtension's "Off", a 45 and a 60Hz cross-over point. (24/24dB/octave).

Further more a 4-position (0,3,6,9dB) boost option at 28Hz (Fs of my 18" woofers), with a narrow Q (0,7), since I don't want the "loudness" type of sound from lets say a Q 2.0

Finally I got a 0 to +6dB variable volume at LF out-put (but NO volumes/attenuator at MF + HF out in order to avoid this in signal chain).

Via the Accuphase DG-38 I measured a notch from 700 to 800Hz, and decided to move cross-over point from 750 to 800Hz in order to boost the Al1501-1 +2dB safely against the 4" Be. I changed slopes (the passive internal filter setting = 12/18dB at 750Hz) to 800Hz 24/24dB to further protection of the 4" Be as I am adding a 1+2 dB boost option from 700-800Hz as compensation to the AL1501-1

Via the Accuphase I also measured an 1- 1,5 dB peak at around 5kHz and added a 1-2dB notch-option at 5kHz, and finally a 3-6dB boost option at 20kHz as i measured a 3-6dB drop from the 1" Be vs. the 4" Be. (All of those EQ's can be passed through).

I think it is very obvious that any LF system intended for use with the E2 is some kind based on a variable electronic crossover + EQ controller in order to adjust LF to the specific listening room, and in my particular situation it was also obvious to go all-in by making a 3 way crossover as I noticed the E2 benefits a lot when upgrading from passive to electronic crossing over between 15" and 4".


2269H: It is no secret thats my dream woofer! But the local JBL pro distributer is asking $2200/each spare part price = my total driver cost ? $8800…... Pretty insane! US JBL PRO-retailer Northern Sound and Light made me an offer at ASB-7128 (dual 2269H) for $3350/box. Thats telling me the drivers shouldn't cost more than 1000-1200$/each. Sponsor wanted , or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

Hi DynaMax,

May thanks for more technical details about your DD66k EQ supported by 4x18" bass drivers.
I have understood that DD66k in your rooms 'behaves' as if in the 'open space' placed on the ground (usual called 2pi).

As our member 4313B said, DD66k were tuned on about 34 Hz (applying TWO vents),
have You tried to close one of the vents on the DD66k ( some tricks applied to 4343),
and (in such way reducing box resonant frequency to about 24.5Hz)
have tried to EQ the speaker response using almost the same bass boost around 28Hz.
May be in that way using EQ for the 'poor DD66k owner' can give some 'more air'.

May be some other solutions can be done using two amplifier for each of the bass drivers, so can
'pump' more power to the "helper bass driver" ( the one that has larger coils in its networks).
All of my 'ideas" is based to protect DD66k owner from another 10k+ investments.

But as You have said possible JBL solution to upgrade Dd66k can be "..ASB-7128 (dual 2269H) for $3350/box.,
so additionaly 6,700 $ ....ONLY.." what would be about 10% of the DD66k initial price

regards
Ivica

[pos]

Forget about the 2269H! Ditch those tiny 15" and put a 24" PD2450 woofer in there!

[DynaMax]

$1,064 each.

Where can I place order at 4 units?

Kind reagrds

Henrik, DynaMax

[DynaMax]

Wow, a war of words not seen for a while..LOL

It might be useful to look at the reverb time of your large room with suitable measurement equipment.

I recall 30- years when I was hiring out my 4343 clones they had awesome bass in some rooms but was bass shy in others.

So I used additional 2235 bins to fill the bass void bi amped with about 1.6 Kw.

I then heard the 4343 in a large acoustic theater used for live concerts at a local university.

No additional woofers needed here and the reproduction was perfectly balanced without any Eq.

I beliwe you.

But this is not about getting balanced sound from DD66000, as that is pretty easy to obtain by EQ'ing the DD66000.

This is about getting enough SPL from 50Hz down to 30Hz in very large rooms.

The only solution are additional LF-drivers = more surface = moving more air.

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

[ivica]

Forget about the 2269H! Ditch those tiny 15" and put a 24" PD2450 woofer in there!

Hmmmm, such 24inch, up to 800Hz ???
2269 is 18inch , isn't it?
regards
ivica

[DynaMax]

$1,064 each.

Hi 4313B

If you prefer to answer my question about were to buy the 2269H at US$1.064 each, please send me an e-mail.

[email protected]

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

[1audiohack]

[QUOTE=DynaMax;367740]Dear Ivica.,,, or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax[QUOTE]


I had to laugh when John at AE claimed his 18's were 2242 killers.

I measured them compared to 2242's and the AE's have nearly identical frequency response but are 5.5dB down in efficiency, across the entire usable pass band. You would need a lot of amp to make that up.

Two new 2242's and two new AE18's, same box, same amp, same mic, same night. I have the measurements around here somewhere. I took an immediate pass.

Barry.

[DynaMax]

[QUOTE=1audiohack;367779][QUOTE=DynaMax;367740]Dear Ivica.,,, or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax

I had to laugh when John at AE claimed his 18's were 2242 killers.

I measured them compared to 2242's and the AE's have nearly identical frequency response but are 5.5dB down in efficiency, across the entire usable pass band. You would need a lot of amp to make that up.

Two new 2242's and two new AE18's, same box, same amp, same mic, same night. I have the measurements around here somewhere. I took an immediate pass.

Barry.

Dear Barry

Well, If you are right, thats sad, but what about distortion? At some forums the AE are claimed to deliver a more clean sound.

Besides that, price at the 2242 are double up the AE, and the difference will almost pay the amp.

If budget high-power are wanted, some Class-D designs are very affordable, but I'm not convinced about Class-D yet..

But from www.emotiva.com I can have 500/1000watts (8/4 Ohm) mono block amp at 1K $, so whats the big deal about?

Anyway I just got a link to an supplier of 2269H who offers reasonable prices from 4313B, and thats gonna be my first try.

Regarding AE, I am mostly interested in their Dipole woofers for an very large Open baffle full-range system I have in mind (4 x 18" pr. channel..), but thats an complete different story.

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

[pos]

Hmmmm, such 24inch, up to 800Hz ???
2269 is 18inch , isn't it?
regards
ivica

Well, that was a joke

[pos]

DynaMax, take a look at the BMS 18N862:
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=18n862_overview

The older version was tested by Vance Dickason in Voice Coil some years ago and it was impressive in most regards: very low distortion and excursion noise, modern motor construction with all the bells and whistles, and good to the low mid.

It also appears in the Data-Bass here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=51
and with a lot of measurements in a small vented enclosure here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...id=94&mset=101
And here you can see how it compares to a 4645c (2242H): http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...rt=desc&mfr=-1
(the tuning is different though...)

[DynaMax]

DynaMax, take a look at the BMS 18N862:
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=18n862_overview

The older version was tested by Vance Dickason in Voice Coil some years ago and it was impressive in most regards: very low distortion and excursion noise, modern motor construction with all the bells and whistles, and good to the low mid.

It also appear in Data-Bass here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=51
and with a lot of measurements in a small vented enclosure here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...id=94&mset=101
And here you can see how it compares to a 4645c (2242H) here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...rt=desc&mfr=-1
(the tuning is different though...)

Dear POS

Very interesting; unfortunately the 2269H is not in the Data-bass..?

Anyway - I just ordered 4 x 2269H from an US retailer.. Thats gonna be tried out, despite the BMS are much cheaper.

This is also about my emotions; - I am a passionated JBL freak - and I think a real "Everest EX" must have Top-Quality JBL drivers installed, not my EVX or the BMS..

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

[Odd]

Here is TS parameters for 2269H