What to do with my 4699b

[Val]

I happily now own a pair of 4699b Cabaret Series speakers. They are in good shape. Now I'm trying to figure out what to do with them. I don't really have much opportunity for the "sound production" that these are designed for. I then begin to think about what it would take to convert these to decent home system. The only thing I come up with seems very expensive. I post my idea here as I'd love some feedback.

The problem is that the E155's and E110's are designed for sound production and not reproduction. So they are non-linear and add color by design. Great JBL Tech note explains this well:
http://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/T...ol.1, No.3.pdf

But the E155's and E110's can be reconed (or traded I suppose).

So here's the design goal: make a relatively small foot print DIY project for home listening

Convert/trade the E155's for 2245H's
Convert/trade the E110's for 2122's
Sell/trade the 2370 horn for 2344 butt cheek
Keep the 2426 (yep, it's the only component that would remain as-is)

Then build a small-as-possible cabinet:
2426+2344 on the top
2122 crossover at 1300Hz @ 12db/octave
2245H crossover at 290Hz @ 12db/octave

Sort of a cross between 4345 and 4430 monitor.

Thoughts?

[grumpy]

Thoughts?

Small as possible and 2245 seem to be at odds (8-9ft3 ?)
Seems a shame to pillage working drivers (can you even get 2245/2212 cone kits these days?)

Does seem like a workable group of drivers, once traded/converted... but no clear
template to follow (active bass/mid xover from 4345... mid/high xover from? ... ideas
could come from 4430/5, but an optimal integration would be completely DIY vs. a known
working example). How dirty do you want to get your hands?

[Lee in Montreal]

Keep those drivers. Calculate a box as big as possible for the bass driver. Make a smaller box for the mid and high drivers. Purchase a 3-way digital crossover and shape the sound to your liking.

The e155 as an Fs of 30Hz. Not bad. And it is a fast woofer with a low Qts of .20

At least that is what I would do. 10cft bass enclosure and a satellite on top.

You need one sheet of 4'x8' to build a 10cft cab. Plus some spares for bracings.

BTW Trading your e155 for some 2245 would be very positive thinking. Those are not in the same price range. I wouldn't pay more than $100 for an e155 while a 2245 commands $200.00 to $350.00 depending of shape.

[Val]

Keep those drivers. Calculate a box as big as possible for the bass driver. Make a smaller box for the mid and high drivers. Purchase a 3-way digital crossover and shape the sound to your liking.

The e155 as an Fs of 30Hz. Not bad. And it is a fast woofer with a low Qts of .20

At least that is what I would do. 10cft bass enclosure and a satellite on top.

You need one sheet of 4'x8' to build a 10cft cab. Plus some spares for bracings.

BTW Trading your e155 for some 2245 would be very positive thinking. Those are not in the same price range. I wouldn't pay more than $100 for an e155 while a 2245 commands $200.00 to $350.00 depending of shape.

I like the digital crossover idea, that would allow for experimenting.

[more10]

Keep those drivers. Calculate a box as big as possible for the bass driver. Make a smaller box for the mid and high drivers. Purchase a 3-way digital crossover and shape the sound to your liking.

Good thinking. I am very happy with my miniDSP 4x10 HD

[Val]

Keep those drivers.

I would like to except for these two things. These speakers, in their current factory condition, do not sound good with recorded music (they do fine with live voice and band). And, after reading the JBL tech note in the first post above, I think I see why, they are not linear by design. I think some eq and different crossover freq might help, but the non-linearity is not addressed by either of those. I'm certainly open to more input on this but I remain unconvinced that the E series would ever be satisfactory home speakers. Anybody running E155/E110 in a home environment?

BTW Trading your e155 for some 2245 would be very positive thinking. Those are not in the same price range. I wouldn't pay more than $100 for an e155 while a 2245 commands $200.00 to $350.00 depending of shape.

I was afraid of that

[Val]

Small as possible and 2245 seem to be at odds (8-9ft3 ?)

You are right, even a "small" cabinet would probably end up being about 9 cu ft.

Seems a shame to pillage working drivers (can you even get 2245/2212 cone kits these days?)

I know, right? These have not seen heavy use and are in great shape and it would be a shame.

mid/high xover from?

1300 Hz is also from the 4345

How dirty do you want to get your hands?

Fairly dirty

[martin_wu99]

some body make it home HIFI system

[Val]

So it's been over 4 years since I updated this post...and the 4699B's are still looming in my garage. Lately I've started obsessing about what is the very smallest form factor cabinet I can build for these drivers. I also had the opportunity to hear some of Siegfried Linkwitz speakers which opened my eyes to dipole speakers.

I'm accepting the fact that E155/E110/2425 drivers are not designed for in home fidelity...but I own them and I'm getting the DIY bug!

I've put together a design concept (attached). Feel free to comment.

[turnitdown]

JBL specs the E155 in a 6 cu. ft. box tuned to 40Hz. That should give you great bass in room. Build a small box for the mid and set the horn on top. Use the factory crossover, then tune to taste. Those should sound just fine for hi-fi. They come with the promise of compromise, just like any other speaker OR add a sub and leave as is. The components are decent, the box is too small.

[Lee in Montreal]

Perhaps you can be inspired by Kef's famous 105 serie

Large bass bin and small "satellites" on top. Large box could do 30-80Hz. If you have a WAF factor to respect, then a cab is as big as what can be seen from the front. Therefore, if you make your narrow - let's say 21" wide and 24" deep by 36" tall - then you can end up with some serious volume. Yup. That's almost 10cft internal volume... ;-) But make it "only" 24 inch tall and it's a tad above 6cft. ;-)

[turnitdown]

Purty, and the best use of real estate AND social acceptance factor.

[Val]

JBL specs the E155 in a 6 cu. ft. box tuned to 40Hz. That should give you great bass in room. Build a small box for the mid and set the horn on top. Use the factory crossover, then tune to taste. Those should sound just fine for hi-fi. They come with the promise of compromise, just like any other speaker OR add a sub and leave as is. The components are decent, the box is too small.

Existing cabs are about 9 cu ft. so 6 cu ft would be an improvement size-wise. Just wondering if anyone has any experience with non-tuned enclosures like H-Frame or W-Frame dipoles. I've built many tuned cabinets but never an open style. My interest is two fold; small size, and different, more open, sound.

[RMC]

Hi Val,

I also did a quick modeling of the E-155 in a 3.1 cu. ft. box tuned to 55 hz, using Win ISD Pro 2016 Edition with QL 7 as the usual box loss assumption, and here again there is NO bass bump in the low end. In fact, not only is the response quite reasonably flat, but it drops in the low- end a bit faster than with Winspeakerz.

Instead of the - 3 db @ 58-9 hz in Winspeakerz, WIN ISD gives me -4 db @ about 59 hz. Quite close from one software to another. As long as one compares apples with apples using QL 7 box loss in both programs as I did. So my post # 30 is still valid...

However, with regards to vent length (Winspeakerz: 2 X 5" dia. vents 6.167" long), WIN ISD gives longer vents for 2 X 5" dia. vents: 7.58 inches long. The difference may be explained by the different vent length math formula each software designer used. Therefore, my suggestion is to start with the longer vent lengths and reduce them by cutting- off small portions as need be to reach the target Fb. If you end-up with an Fb of say 57 hz don't lose sleep over that, WIN ISD tells me response will be even a bit flatter in the bass range... (up to Fb around 59 hz).

You can check box Fb by running test tones (e.g. 70 to 50 hz) to the woofer when the speaker is almost finalized and putting a finger lightly on the cone near the surround to feel which test tone frequency leads to least or no cone vibration, that corresponds to box tuning frequency (Fb).

You can seal temporarily around the vent on the inside of the box with modeling clay for example, while doing your Fb tests and when you get the result you want then replace the clay with permanent silicone around the vent on the inside of cabinet. Air- tight boxes (except for vent) are a MUST HAVE here.

BTW there are tons of ready-made Sound Reinforcement boxes on the market from known manufacturers with an F3 around 55-65 hz, including many with 12", 15" or 18" woofer in two or three-way configurations. Yours would certainly not be the odd ones. My previous EQ (with high-pass filter) and/or placement suggestions also remain relevant if need be. Regards,

Richard

[1audiohack]

Hi Val;

While it’s true that producers are usually not linear like reproducers attempt to be, the E110 is quite linear save for it’s rising response and this is easily leveled with a single pole low pass filter.

While high efficiency drivers can be eq’d level, high efficiency cannot be eq’d into low efficiency drivers.

Thinking about Lee’s suggestion, a 2342 biradial horn is the same size as the E110 and they look great stacked together and are naturally very nearly time aligned.

That stackup E155, E110, 2426/2342 utilizing dsp like a dbx 260 or 360 with proper crossover, alignment and eq, the sound quality would surprize a lot of people. With some sub it would floor them.

The picture you posted could be great for reproducing percussion! I have thought about that style for an ambitious 24 track reproduction system,,, someday.
Barry.