Which way would you go, what would you build?

[emilime75]

EDIT: Why do posts appear as one continuous paragraph when I include line breaks as I'm creating the thread? I'm debating between a 3 way based on a pair of 2245Hs, or a 2 way based on a pair of 2216-NDs. Either version will use a pair of 2450SLs on VTX waveguides and fully active. For the 3 way, I have a choice of either a pair of 2169Hs, or 2251Js.3 way pros - I have all of the drivers - only additional cost and effort would be for the enclosure builds.3 way cons - Bigger in size, more complex and would require more effort to dial in(DSP), cost of enclosures would be greater due to the 2245 needing a large box.2 way pros - Smaller in size, less costly enclosures, simpler system to dial in(DSP).2 way cons - I don't have the woofers, would require an additional $800+ to buy them...and, Speaker Exchange currently shows them as out of stock, so maybe that just made my decision for me. Which do you think has the potential to sound better? Use case would be a mix of TV/Movies/Music. Not a dedicated media room, they'd be going in a family/living room and used daily. Would prefer no additional subs, and my guess is that I wouldn't necessarily need any with either woofer choice.

[1audiohack]

I know this flies in the face of those who love the 4345 and it’s just my opinion but in my experience I haven’t been able to make, or ever heard a 10” JBL mid (2122/2123/2251) play low enough with any authority to pair with a 2245. I don’t love 2245’s above 100-120 Hz. Put a good 12” in there and now we’re talking.

The 2216Nd with the 2251’s and 2450SL is a combo I have done and love.

Barry.

[rusty jefferson]

I know this flies in the face of those who love the 4345 and it’s just my opinion but in my experience I haven’t been able to make, or ever heard a 10” JBL mid (2122/2123/2251) play low enough with any authority to pair with a 2245. I don’t love 2245’s above 100-120 Hz. Put a good 12” in there and now we’re talkin....
Barry.

Couldn't agree more.

[1audiohack]

EDIT: Why do posts appear as one continuous paragraph when I include line breaks as I'm creating the thread?…

Go to settings, top right of the maroon page by your profile and the log out button, then to general setting in the drop down tree on the left, then almost to the bottom of the page there are three text editor setting, the bottom most basic is it.

That should fix you.
Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

I know this flies in the face of those who love the 4345 and it’s just my opinion but in my experience I haven’t been able to make, or ever heard a 10” JBL mid (2122/2123/2251) play low enough with any authority to pair with a 2245. I don’t love 2245’s above 100-120 Hz. Put a good 12” in there and now we’re talking.

The 2216Nd with the 2251’s and 2450SL is a combo I have done and love.

I like the 4345, but agree the two way with the 2216Nd and DSP is the superior solution.


Widget

[sebackman]

I agree with Barry and Widget.

If you really need to play very loud you may need the cone area of the 18", unless you can accommodate subs.

The vintage speakers like 434X do have their charm no doubt, with the risk of being killed here, none of them are a real match för a 2216Nd/2451SL/DSP combo. They were marvels of their time but technology has moved on.

That does not mean that I would not like a pair of 4343 in the living room myself. However I would not replace the other systems with them, but rather add to them. -And a cold beer for some great 60-70's west coast rock evenings. :-)

I would go for a 2-way with 2216Nd/2451SL/VTX/DSP to start. I have a hard time seeing that any vintage 3-way could give that a match, unless ridiculously loud is needed (4355).

The XO will be very complicated in a custom 3-way setup. I have completely abandoned 3 & 4-way setups for that reason and the fact that DSP/wave guides has made 2-way full range possible.

Even using DSP it is time consuming and complicated to get phase and dispersion patterns good at XO points in multi-way systems. EQ is the easy part. 2216Nd is a great mid range woofer. With subs you do have alternatives for drivers if you XO at 50-80Hz to subs. I often use PRO1400 but they have limited low end output and will need subs.

If dual 2216's does not provide the low end grunt needed, add 4 distributed subwoofers based upon long throw 12" or 15" woofers. Remember that a modern 15" has more very low frequency output than any 2245.

2245 is a great driver but today's alternatives will give it a run for the money. Albeit an 18" woofer always looks cool if you can find the acreage for a couple of them.

In a normal room dual 15"s are plenty for music. I do not plan to use subs for my 4367 clones.

My 25 cents

//Rob

[pos]

Go to settings, top right of the maroon page by your profile and the log out button, then to general setting in the drop down tree on the left, then almost to the bottom of the page there are three text editor setting, the bottom most basic is it.

Thank you so much Barry, I had stopped posting anything other than one-liners because of this formatting bug.
That should be a sticky, or maybe be made default and enforced in the database for all existing members.

The 2216Nd with the 2251’s and 2450SL is a combo I have done and love.

I'd love to read about that system!

[emilime75]

Appreciate all of the replies, guys. There's a lot to digest here and too much to quote each of you, but thank you.

Speaker Exchange hasn't replied yet to the 2216s being out of stock and if they expect to get more. This may be the deciding factor for me, if they've become NLA.

I do have 2 pairs of 1400PROs - guess I could do 2245/1400PRO/2450SL. I'm sure that would sound pretty darn good, but again, I was hoping for a bit more compact system and the simplicity of a 2 way.

And I would also love to hear about the 2216ND/2251J/2450SL system 1audiohack mentioned.

[Ian Mackenzie]

On the mid low frequency loudness if you want pro pa levels at 50 feet then a 12 inch mid bass is a must above the large woofer.

The problem with a listening monitor at 3 metres using a large mid like 2022 with an 18 inch woofer is integration. After you place the HF horn it’s either too large an array or a cluster fuck if placed sideways.

Btw I’ve used the LR perfect transient response 12 db filter on the 2245 to the 2122 or 2123. It measured and sounded far better than the jbl 18 db 290 hertz filter or the LR24 db filter. The LR 12 db filter is 6 db down at the crossover point.

Subjectively this seems to blend the 2245 and the 2122/2123 far more smoothly. On jazz genres the double bass is reproduced beautifully.

I’m talking the acoustic slope here guys so the HP electrical filter requires some frequency shift to dial it in so the 2122/2123 is 6 db down at the crossover point. (260-320).


I’ve also increased the 2245 enclosure volume to 10 cu ft net by making a higher kick base and using it as added enclosure volume. That would not impress the JBL marketing dudes. The stock 4345 enclosure has a net volume of 9 cu ft according to Greg Timbers.

Tuning the port to 27 hertz there is a slight (on paper) fall in the response below 60 hertz. You can’t do this on a simulator because the side walls and proximity of the 3 ports impact on the real tuning frequency which is the minimum cone movement.

Greg Timbers advised these large drivers are difficult to model and said the impedance null was not a reliable indicator of the real tuning frequency.

With a direct connection to a power amp (no passive crossover) the 2245 has a crisper and more taught presentation.

The JBL 4345 enclosure volume and tuning was a compromise to contain the dimensions and to make the passive crossover work.

[emilime75]

Speaker Exchange replied - apparently they're having an issue with their site, they can see people submitting inquiries, but they don't see the text, or what the inquiry is about. They say they have more 2216NDs coming with an end of October ETA.

I think you guys have convinced me, 2 way with the 2216Nd/2450Sl it is going to be. I'll save the 2245s and 1400PROs and 2251s and 2169s...for another day.

And while I wait for the woofers to come back into stock, I get to design the enclosure - what's the ideal volume and tuning for the 2216ND?