JBL Master Reference Monitor

[Valentin]

... and in the 4365

The compression-driver in the M2 is not in the same league as the 4" 476mg/476be, it has been stated by several "authorities" on this forum.

this could be a fact

But

The D2 with the M2 horn and the active xo is a better combo than the 476Mg/BE with the 9900/67000 horn pasive Xo
its a more advanced psicoacoustic implementation of the Harman research team

It is smoother it has better dispersion horizontal and vertical and it images a lot better than the K2 9900 which i hear often


booth are very advanced speakers

[bubbleboy76]

this could be a fact

But

The D2 with the M2 horn and the active xo is a better combo than the 476Mg/BE with the 9900/67000 horn pasive Xo
its a more advanced psicoacoustic implementation of the Harman research team

It is smoother it has better dispersion horizontal and vertical and it images a lot better than the K2 9900 which i hear often

This could be a fact, I have never heard the M2.

booth are very advanced speakers

That is a fact

[1audiohack]

....I think it sounded fantastic. Dynamics, clarity and details were really good. BUT, both times I heard it, I thought it sounded a little "thin" in the midrange. Difficult to explain, but the best way to explain it is to compare it to the S9900 and Everest. Their sound has a unique midrange with "body/weight" without sacrafising clarify and details. More tactile-sounding.

Since this is subjective I had decided I was not going to say it, but, I perceive the M2 exactly as you say. They have the best bass I have heard out of a single 15 box and they do sound great.

I really think it's the D2. They sound like that on the 4338's as well.

Since I am out on a limb and over the cliff as well, I am going to say what I think. To me this looks like a serious exercise in the opposite direction of the statement systems like the Everest's. How to get the very best sound possible from drivers and horns that aren't crazy expensive to manufacture. I think the whole LSR line follows that line of thinking.

The M2 horn has enough draft to pop nearly complete right out of a two piece pull die mold very much unlike the throats of the 4338, 4365 and E2's and uses a pro motor and basket woofer with a good cone/coil assembly.

Personally I think the engineering direction is great. The achievement of the M2 is phenomenal.

I will likely end up with a pair of M2's sometime but I chose the 4365's and have relegated my D2's to super tweeters for the shop stereo, In this they excel!

I hope I don't offend anyone with my opinion, it is after all, only that.

All the best,
Barry.

[Ed Zeppeli]

How to get the very best sound possible from drivers and horns that aren't crazy expensive to manufacture. I think the whole LSR line follows that line of thinking.

This is interesting to me. I haven't heard the system and it sounds like they've made something phenomenal as a DSPed system but from everything I've seen about these I think your assessment is accurate.

[4313B]

Got my M2's yesterday, quickly unpacked them and have them running with the default settings in the Crown amps. I have to say, without reservation, these are the best speakers I've ever owned. Maybe even the best I've ever heard as well.

I have to admit that they blew me away. I absolutely did not think that JBL Pro had it in them. At this point in time, if I had to choose only one JBL loudspeaker to spend the rest of my life with the M2 would be it. And I have to be honest in that price/performance has a lot to do with that. For twenty grand I end up with a system that easily competes with systems three to four times the price.

... and in the 4365

The compression-driver in the M2 is not in the same league as the 4" 476mg/476be, it has been stated by several "authorities" on this forum.

The 476Mg and 476Be are way too expensive for the price point of the M2. I remember a time a few years ago when a pair of 476Be's were more expensive than a single M2...

The D2 with the M2 horn and the active xo is a better combo than the 476Mg/BE with the 9900/67000 horn pasive Xo
its a more advanced psicoacoustic implementation of the Harman research team

It is smoother it has better dispersion horizontal and vertical and it images a lot better than the K2 9900 which i hear often

I think a whole lot more R&D went into the M2 and I know for a fact that they didn't get it right the first time. If the same kind of DSP R&D went into a system like the 4365, K2 or Everest II we'd very likely be singing a different song.

To me this looks like a serious exercise in the opposite direction of the statement systems like the Everest's. How to get the very best sound possible from drivers and horns that aren't crazy expensive to manufacture. I think the whole LSR line follows that line of thinking.

I think that sums it up, other than that the M2 is an exceptionally excellent tool for serious professionals.

Personally I think the engineering direction is great. The achievement of the M2 is phenomenal.

I very clearly remember my doubt when I first read that they considered it a "game changer". Today I have to give it to them.

I chose the 4365's

Well they look really nice and you always have the option, if you so choose, to work up a DSP solution.

[Valentin]

Indeed the D2 is not the most expensive driver too manufacture and has not the best specs compared too the 476 Mg/Be drivers
the same case for the woofer

the clue is in the R&D in the integration of such

IF Marketing approves going active and using new Horn/waveguide (the same thing) i have no doubt the 476 and 1500 will bring more even pleasure to the listening

I think the new Everest 70 anniversary should be active via Mark Levinson amps and dsp and use the psicoacustic parameters in trying to have equal dispersion horizontally and vertically Its a proven fact it works the research was worth it

[4313B]

Indeed the D2 is not the most expensive driver too manufacture and has not the best specs compared too the 476 Mg/Be drivers
the same case for the woofer

the clue is in the R&D in the integration of such

I know that I am preaching to the choir - JBL Pro proved that they didn't require a 1500AL or a 476Be to build a world class system. The M2 doesn't require the more expensive transducers to get the point across.

We aren't the target demographic anyway. If they sell a few pairs to folks like us, neato, but their focus is really on the professional marketplace where it all begins.

It is my luck that I find the M2 to be my personal cup of tea. It delivers exactly what I have come to expect from JBL. If I can get my 1501AL-2 and 476Mg to sound as good, or better, then that will be fantastic. If not, I really won't lose any sleep over it. The M2 is that good.

[ivica]

".....I know that I am preaching to the choir - JBL Pro proved that they didn't require a 1500AL or a 476Be to build a world class system. The M2 doesn't require the more expensive transducers to get the point across.
We aren't the target demographic anyway. If they sell a few pairs to folks like us, neato, but their focus is really on the professional marketplace where it all begins.
It is my luck that I find the M2 to be my personal cup of tea. It delivers exactly what I have come to expect from JBL. If I can get my 1501AL-2 and 476Mg to sound as good, or better, then that will be fantastic. If not, I really won't lose any sleep over it. The M2 is that good. ..."

Hi 4313B,

All the time, here we are talking about what "I line or dislike", but it is known that such things are fare to be comparable, as a kind of objective reference is not present. As You have "old school drivers" such as 476Be/Mg, 1500Al, and a lot of others drivers, and now, M2, You can make some more technically based comparison and the measurements, so all of that can be compared. As we can seen from some measurements presented her M2 horn seems to me not to be so smooth, as H9900, H9800, H66k over 4~5kHz, a kind of internal reflections seems to me is present, may be "water-fall diagram would be good presentation".
It woiud be interesting to be seen THD 1500Al vs 2216Nd.
I believe that You are much, much more experienced in that field.

Regards
Ivica

[4313B]

As we can seen from some measurements presented her M2 horn seems to me not to be so smooth, as H9900, H9800, H66k over 4~5kHz, a kind of internal reflections seems to me is present, may be "water-fall diagram would be good presentation".

I'll try and answer your other questions later but this jumped out at me and I have to say something with respect to it. During one of our conversations years ago G.T. said something to the effect that I should "scoop" out a bit of response from roughly 4 kHz to 6 kHz when I was doing a passive filter for the H4338. He said that it wouldn't measure as nice but it would sound better. It turns out that he was right. I used a notch filter to decrease output by roughly 2 dB in that region and it made a positive difference. Of course now, one just sets up a PEQ filter to do it in mere moments.

[pos]

Yes this "problem" with the biradial horns was addressed by Charles Sprinkle in this interview, and deemed one of the reasons why they choose another type of horn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDmzfpf3fCk

I have measured it on my H9800:


And it was also measured in two different reviews of the 4365 (with a supertweeter above 10kHz...) :

(montage of three measurements, courtesy of ivica)

I tried to address this problem exactly as you say when EQing bubbleboy76's speakers.

[bubbleboy76]

I'll try and answer your other questions later but this jumped out at me and I have to say something with respect to it. During one of our conversations years ago G.T. said something to the effect that I should "scoop" out a bit of response from roughly 4 kHz to 6 kHz when I was doing a passive filter for the H4338. He said that it wouldn't measure as nice but it would sound better. It turns out that he was right. I used a notch filter to decrease output by roughly 2 dB in that region and it made a positive difference. Of course now, one just sets up a PEQ filter to do it in mere moments.

POS has done something similar on my active setup, due to the off-axis behaviour of the horn. -2.5Db at 6600Hz Q=1.

Edit: I was too late posting this

[4313B]

Ok, cool! Glad to see you guys are on top of this stuff.

See how much more fun this stuff is with DSP instead of having to slog through LEAP and swap passive parts? And I used to think THAT was EASY compared to the way we did it in the seventies and eighties.

Now I just need to get hold of another pair of 4313B's, rip out the passive networks and go full DSP.
Just kidding, it's easier to simply buy a pair of LSR's for a couple hundred bucks and toss the 4313B's into the landfill...

[ivica]

".....I'll try and answer your other questions later but this jumped out at me and I have to say something with respect to it. During one of our conversations years ago G.T. said something to the effect that I should "scoop" out a bit of response from roughly 4 kHz to 6 kHz when I was doing a passive filter for the H4338. He said that it wouldn't measure as nice but it would sound better. It turns out that he was right. I used a notch filter to decrease output by roughly 2 dB in that region and it made a positive difference. Of course now, one just sets up a PEQ filter to do it in mere moments....."


Hi 4313B,

Such explanation, and suggestion is, I believe, due to the off-axis H4338 driver-horn behavior. As relative to the on-axis response, I believe, that horn-driver combo has some overshoot in the mentioned region, in "off-axis space". Almost the same behavior I have get while doing the off-axis measurements of the horn I have designed (inspired by the H66000 horn, but not so wide, mine is about 60cm x 24 cm) using JBL 2450SL-1.5 driver. On the attached figure it can be seen that off-axis response relative to the on-axis response has some overshoot ( about 2~2.5dB in the middle region) in the region from about 3kHz up to 7kHz. So some amount of sound energy in that region has larger energy then on-axis radiation, and I believe that was happened while great Mr.G.T. had given the mentioned suggestion. So measurements on-axis, and off-axis response has to be done, while we want to give more 'measurable' (technically objectively) data about some horn. Knowing that You are full aware of all such things, I am anxious to see the data of the measurements M2,.....

regards
ivica

[Valentin]

These are the only publish data that i know of the M2 with the on axis measurement and the K2 9900

the directivity is smoother and more constant in the M2

[Mr. Widget]

One more data point on the subjective side.

My friend with both the M2s and E2s has recently done the the full ARCOS calibration on his M2s and gave me his listening impressions. For those that don't know about ARCOS, it is a variant of Harman's HATS acoustic analyzation system that is geared towards the JBL Synthesis systems and allows a trained technician to perform very sophisticated multi-channel speaker configurations with multi-amping and full room calibration. With this system driving the M2s, you not only install the correction filters provided by the Crown amps, but you custom tailor the system for the room it is in with additional EQ phase correction etc.

Like everyone else he thinks the M2s are exceptional speakers. The imaging "sweet spot" is exceptionally wide. He said that the M2s just do not sound like a horn system. He said that they sound more like the Revel Ultima2 Salons but with more dynamics. After the ARCOS calibration the bass is tight, well behaved, and extended in his large room to below 30Hz. The room plot was insanely flat with no downward tilt from bass to treble and while he said some might find the sound lean it is in no way bright or harsh. It is very detailed and open sounding. He was also very impressed with the ultra hi frequency response of this two-way speaker system.

Now in comparison to the E2, he said that the E2 lacks the bass control of the M2s (not really a fair comparison since the E2s are a single amped all analog system with no DSP or room correction). He also said that even though the E2 doesn't sound honky, there is something more horn like about them than the M2s. That said, he also said that the E2's imaging when sitting in the sweet spot was actually a little better and the mids are definitely more resolving. The big Be driver has a greater sense of speed or attack on transients. Overall the E2 is more dynamic sounding.

When I have a few free minutes I plan on dropping by to do my own comparison. I'll update this thread if I find anything of additional interest.


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