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Thread: JBL Master Reference Monitor

  1. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I wish I had the hour! So far I've seen 29 min... it is interesting to be sure! The über geek is a bit off putting, but overall he isn't too distracting.


    Widget
    If it means anything, he's just as geeky-goofy in person as in the video. Nonetheless he really enjoys what he does, and he is very deep into that role.

    As for the JBL/Harman content, I thought both guys did a good job getting the key points across except for the discussion on the amps.
    Out.

  2. #707
    whgeiger
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    No Patent Yet!

    The design methodology for Sprinkle's Horn (ICWG) is obscured even in the WIPO patent application [2], which is so general in its claims, that it is under challenge from the ISA for a lack on "Novelty" and other concerns [1].

    Nevertheless, with dimensions for a few key points on the horn body (from a M2 owner), a sufficiently accurate facsimile could be generated for DIY purposes, from the information contained in the application.

    Regards,

    WHG
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #708
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whgeiger View Post
    The design methodology for Sprinkle's Horn (ICWG) is obscured even in the WIPO patent application [2], which is so general in its claims, that it is under challenge from the ISA for a lack on "Novelty" and other concerns [1].

    Nevertheless, with dimensions for a few key points on the horn body (from a M2 owner), a sufficiently accurate facsimile could be generated for DIY purposes, from the information contained in the application.

    Regards,

    WHG
    Hi whgeinger,

    Thanks for the 'morning light' over the M2 mystery. May be that would stimulate the other forum members to elaborate M2 construction, prior to "copy-paste" work.

    Starting DIY horn of such 3D complicate surface, that would be applied to the available 1.5" drivers without having any idea what kind of results would be get, is not too encouraging, especially IF the result would be something like the none-EQ-resposne as:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post354372

    regards
    Ivica

  4. #709
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    especially IF the result would be something like the none-EQ-resposne as:

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post354372
    Hi Ivica

    The scale make it look worse than it is...
    As long as the needed EQ is "stable" enough in the listening window (30° horizontal and 10° as per Toole recommendations) then everything is fine (especially if diffraction effects are guarantied to be smeared/minimized...).

    Comparing the black (on-axis) and green (averaged 30°/10°) curves here, it seems to be the case, with only one big accident around 2kHz.

    Name:  m2 spin.jpg
Views: 2816
Size:  52.8 KB

    Compared to an H9800:


    The 30° horizontal off axis response of the H9800 is louder than the on axis on in the 3kHz+ range, and even with the narrow vertical directivity of that horn it shows in the lisetning window curve!
    If that was the case with th M2 waveguide that would be even more visible in the listening window curve because of the large vertical directivity.

  5. #710
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Starting DIY horn of such 3D complicate surface, that would be applied to the available 1.5" drivers without having any idea what kind of results would be get, is not too encouraging, especially IF the result would be something like the none-EQ-resposne as:
    Hello Ivica

    How do you know what is from the horn or the driver?? The driver is designed to be used as an SR driver with DSP. Anyone have measrurements with the 2430 and say a 2447/2451/2452 on the same horn?? Might help clear things up a bit.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  6. #711
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    Hi Ivica

    The scale make it look worse than it is...
    As long as the needed EQ is "stable" enough in the listening window (30° horizontal and 10° as per Toole recommendations) then everything is fine (especially if diffraction effects are guarantied to be smeared/minimized...).

    Comparing the black (on-axis) and green (averaged 30°/10°) curves here, it seems to be the case, with only one big accident around 2kHz.

    Compared to an H9800:
    The 30° horizontal off axis response of the H9800 is louder than the on axis on in the 3kHz+ range, and even with the narrow vertical directivity of that horn it shows in the lisetning window curve!
    If that was the case with th M2 waveguide that would be even more visible in the listening window curve because of the large vertical directivity.
    Hi POS,

    I can agree with You that lot of thing can be EQ compensated, especially using Floating point DSP, but does that mean that almost any decent speaker can be EQ, so under such circumstances why to spend 10K$ or more.

    It would be nice if we can get some independent not only averaged data. May one day a kind of available 1.5" inch driver with M2 can be put to measurements.

    As I have remembered You have done some D2 driver measurements with other horn then M2.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post362742
    and You can give us a better comparison. Unfortunately too much smoothing and averaging 'fogged' the reality.
    Interestingly on M2 DI index, it seems that over 10kHz beaming start to rize, I believe mainly in the vertical plane, but some more data about the horizontal dispersion would be well-come.

    Reagrds
    Ivica

  7. #712
    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello Ivica

    How do you know what is from the horn or the driver??
    The driver is designed to be used as an SR driver with DSP.
    Anyone have measurements with the 2430 and say a 2447/2451/2452 on the same horn??
    Might help clear things up a bit.

    Rob
    Hi Robh3606,

    I can agree that without the reference that would be difficult to compare. Up to now I have only seen POS measurements of D2 with PT-F95HF horn
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post362742
    unfortunately we have no "independent" M2+D2 measurements under the same conditions.

    I do not understand your words: "The driver is designed to be used as an SR driver with DSP".
    I believe that ANY driver (SR or not-SR) can be used with the DSP EQ.
    Does that mean that after DSP EQ they will sound the same?

    Regards
    Ivica

  8. #713
    Senior Member Valentin's Avatar
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    the Magic comes as a system D2 driver has it pros and cons the wave guide is a specific design for the aplication 120x 110 dispersion with the D2 as a driver

    it is not a Generic horn

    LSR 305 and 308 do not use the same horn even if thy use the same tweeter it may seem it folows the same principle but the xo and bass driver are not the same

  9. #714
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    I can agree with You that lot of thing can be EQ compensated, especially using Floating point DSP, but does that mean that almost any decent speaker can be EQ, so under such circumstances why to spend 10K$ or more.
    As mentioned above this is the case only if the response is "stable" enough over the entire listening windows, which seems to be the case with the M2.


    As I have remembered You have done some D2 driver measurements with other horn then M2.
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post362742 and You can give us a better comparison. Unfortunately too much smoothing and averaging 'fogged' the reality.
    These measurements are gated (see impulse), and no other smoothing is applied.
    The precision is good enough for comparison purpose, especially up high (for example the null in the 2435HPL above 10kHz is clearly visible and with a high Q).

    Interestingly on M2 DI index, it seems that over 10kHz beaming start to rize, I believe mainly in the vertical plane, but some more data about the horizontal dispersion would be well-come
    Name:  M2 horizontal vertical.jpg
Views: 2394
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  10. #715
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin View Post
    the Magic comes as a system D2 driver has it pros and cons the wave guide is a specific design for the aplication 120x 110 dispersion with the D2 as a driver
    I think any driver with a planar wavefront would do.
    A 476 or 2451/2450SL would probably qualify

  11. #716
    Senior Member Valentin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    I think any driver with a planar wavefront would do.
    A 476 or 2451/2450SL would probably qualify
    I would think the 476 deserves a spesific waveguide and dsp to mach the directivity of the bass driver its mached with

    but shure it will sound in the M2 wave guide

  12. #717
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    For those interested, I compiled a small document with the crossover settings as described by 4313B, and some alternative settings for different crossover units (miniDSP, hypex, etc).
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    I also intend to release rePhase configurations files as well as ready to use FIR coefficients files for openDRC, JRiver and other convolution engines.
    I might include a phase-linearized version for the crossover and BR.

  13. #718
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    I made an error in the shelving Q calculation.
    The document has been corrected, and gain settings have also been added.

  14. #719
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    el goregrind es cultura

  15. #720
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    M2 crossover with a pair of openDRC

    Following the google document I already posted (which has been updated with curves recently), here is a small project for using rePhase and openDRC or miniSHARC devices as crossovers for the M2:
    http://www.minidsp.com/forum/opendrc...th-the-opendrc

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