weakest link part 2

[brett_s]

About a year ago, I posted a thread looking for suggestions identifying the "weakest link" in my system. Basically, I was looking for suggestions on what area should be targeted for improvement. At the time, the consensus was to get a dedicated 2 channel preamp as I was using a AV receiver as my preamp. I followed that suggestion and was blown away by the difference it made. Nothing is by any means top notch gear, but I've been able to compile a really nice sounding system at a realitively affordable price.

Here's my current set up (for stereo listening).
-Belles soloist 3 preamp
-Parasound HCA1500 amp
-JBL XPL200a speakers
-Dennon dvd-1930ci as my CD player
-monster m850 interconnects
-some sort of larger gauge generic speaker wire (I can't remember what I used).

If this was your system, what would you target for improvement? I'm open to all ideas and I won't be offended by any thoughts you have. I don't have a budget right now, nor a time a frame, I'm just looking for ideas.

Thanks,
Brett

[DogBox]

....what would you target for improvement?

Hi Brett,

Just my bit, but have you ever tried using a dedicated CD Player to play your CD's?
As good as the Denon may be, a dedicated CD player WILL make a difference! Then, start changing ONE thing at a time: this way, you
can always revert back and see 'how much' of a change- and for the better, or not.
Speaker position is another one that can make [or, break] a "huge" difference. Are the speakers on stands? Again, try on and off, and
always give yourself plenty of "listening" to decide....
For starters.....


DogBox

[pathfindermwd]

I'm just looking for ideas.

Thanks,
Brett

What an interesting approach! What an interesting concept, ask how to make your system better...

Sell all that you have, and buy something - NEW!

Ok, doesn't have to be that apocalyptic...

But seriously, buy some new speakers, buy some 240ti's, or 250ti's, or the newer Performance Series. Because, the path to the best system, is your best system...

In my audio-quest (which isn't over yet), I have bought the JBL: CF100, L100T, L100S (not the old L100), CF150, 240ti, Performance Series PT800/PS1400. I have had the opportunity to listen extensively to the 250ti, and have listened to many other new offerings out there.

But here's what it come's down to... do you know what you like? Do you know what your taste is? And, are your ready to labor to make that system, the best you can, to your own satisfaction? Not for me, the forum, or other audiophiles, but for your own audio passion and taste...



A few friends have 250ti's. My setup can't compete with theirs, these speakers/systems are like having a 7' pro football player in the room. My room won't do it the way their room does, equipment aside. But for my room, and for my listening (vocals, instrumental), it's my modded L100S's. Every time I improve it, I am in love, and amazed! Every speaker I put next to it, fails in some regard to live up against it's all out dynamics and honest (if sassy) character. They are smaller than the 250ti, but tenacious, and will give you a good ear bleeding if you ever doubt their resolve. But they hypnotize like a Siren, and they are revealing to a fault. They are an honest speaker, and while they have their own faults, they aren't aware of them, and if they are, aren't embarrassed in the least.

I've re-coned, I've re-foamed. I've modded x-overs, and tried different speaker wires, tube pre-amps, amps, pre-amps, and placement. I've tried different speakers good and bad (though not nearly all). I've spent more money, I've modded for less/free. I've tried CD, I've tried Vinyl. I've swapped drivers, I've nearly ruined drivers. And all it has all done is only reinforce for me, what I like, and what works for me now, at my age, in my room, for my taste. And it took alot of of effort, time and money to get there!

And here come's some guy cherry pickin' ideas, so he can say/think.. they're the best...

Well!!!

It's a good question, but only part of the equation, the most important part being, you!

All that being said, my top mods, which I continue to use are these:

1. Buy a good DAC. For me it was the MusicStreamerII (cheap) since I listen mainly from my computer. There are alot of $$ choices out there, one forum member recommended a Bryston DAC to me. With an nice DAC you don't need to worry about your CD (ect.) player quality, as long as it has digital output.
2. Raise your tweeter 6" higher (closer to ear-level). I did it to improve the tweeter/mid but the bass improvement was stellar (your room may vary).
3. Buy JRiver (if you listen from your PC). It'll integrate a DAC for great digital sound.
4. Get rid of those homely XPL's and get a pair of L100T3 (I'll swap you a pair!)
5. If your speakers are too bright, put some L-pads on them, they really let you dial in your taste, with experiment.

What are your recommends so far?

EDIT: Amps and pre-amps can have a major impact on the sound, so try different ones.

[HCSGuy]

1. Don't change your speakers yet. I've A/B XPL's against 250Ti's and other than bass, the difference is not large, especially if you get the tweeters at the same height and match levels. Yes, I liked the XPL's midrange detail a little more, but the 250's put things together better and the bass was miles better. However, since you have the XPL's, put them on stands (if they're not already), and I'd look at active biamping with a separate analog crossover (finding a DX-1 would be great, but you're more likely to win the lottery). I think the payoff here in bass could be huge. If you're ever in CA, let me know and we'll do some A/B'ing

2. Change your disc player or get a D/A convertor. Consider haunting Audiogon or Ebay for something used and cheap, just to try. I still love the old Sony DVP-S7000 as a CD player, and they're probably $100 or so. Disc players and D/A convertors are largely a matter of taste, so you have to try a few and see what you like.

3. Like CD players, try playing with other power amplifiers. Your Parasound is fine, but you may find something you like better...

happy listening!

[Mr. Widget]

I like #2 and#3 above... if you could swing it, I would consider trying a pair of 1400Arrays... and then there is the room itself. For most of us our listening rooms are our weakest links.


Widget

[MikeBrewster77]

Clearly you need better cables. Better cables with magical rails that hold them up off the ground. And special sauce you slather on the terminals prior to connecting them. And whatever you do, do not dare move the mystical cables once they've been placed. Oh, and rocks (yes, they're rocks, but they're pretty, no?) to break up comb filtering. These go in the corners of your room. What's that you say - physics? It won't work? Moving right along, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

I kid.

But the point is illustrative. Before answering the question, I have one for you: What's lacking and what's your point of comparison?

After many years seeking audio nirvana (a goal I'm sure many of us share) I've come to the conclusion that if you can't articulate what you're seeking in an upgrade, you should save your money until you can.

I'm fortunate in that I do have a very knowledgeable high-end dealer who indulges me (shoutout: Overture Audio, Wilm, DE location.) Of course, I actually have spent some money with them, though not nearly of the kind their average customer does; to their credit, the accommodation level is substantially disproportionate to their ROI, but I've built rapport with them and they know that when I do upgrade anything aside from speakers (because of course, they don't represent JBL, and yes we've had a conversation about that) they'll be my choice. They're also passionate about sound and just all around great guys, so there's that. Nonetheless, if you can somehow swing it, I'd recommend finding the best shop you can, calling them and asking when their slowest traffic time is, making an appointment, and then going to listen to the highest-end setups they have. N.B., You may want to leave out the part about not having an upgrade budget/time frame when you do this, though allowing them the courtesy heads up that you are planning an upgrade but will simply be listening that day should level set expectations and make the interaction less pressured. Bring music that is intimately familiar and really listen; take notes about what you hear that you don't get at home. Leave dejected knowing that you'll never be able to afford a system like that until you're old enough to take a reverse mortgage on your home to pay for it, and by that time your ears will have gone to shit anyway.

If this isn't possible, listen to like minded friends' systems. In other words, do anything you can to listen to at least several truly high-end systems; don't worry about the specific equipment at this point - just listen for differences. Get a feel for the state of the art. After some experience with this, rank the attributes missing in your current configuration by importance to you, and then you can start to determine next steps. Anything less is just haphazard, and while you might get some improvements, you still may not get what you truly want.

(Insert caveats re: our ability to hold sonic signatures in memory for any period of time, psychoacoustics, we hear what we want to/think we should hear, etc., here)

Then it's time to ask for recommendations. It's far more helpful when you can say something like "My system does Y & Z really well today, but it's lacking A & B. What could I do within $X.XX budget to gain some improvements there?" Not only will you get much more useful recommendations, you'll save some money by following this process - money that when saved rather than spent every time you have some extra cash to do a small upgrade will eventually net you the larger-scale upgrades that really make an impact. There's a point of diminishing returns with this stuff, and usually once you hit a certain plateau, you've got to start really spending to achieve a noteworthy improvement. Not saying your current system is necessarily there, having not heard it myself, but it's just a reality.

For most of us our listening rooms are our weakest links. Widget

This, this, and this. Along the lines of the "save you money for the moment" theme earlier, I'd say if you haven't invested the time in proper speaker placement and at least some room optimization, then you could very well throw a ton of cash down the drain. If you haven't been crawling around on your knees looking like a crazed person for at least a day in pursuit of optimal speaker placement, surrounded by tape measures, rulers, masking tape, sharpies, laser pointers, and a calculator, then the biggest upgrade you can get is FREE! Even if it's not feasible to leave your speakers in these configurations, try some of the different approaches out there just to see what's possible (Cardas' Golden Cuboid was the most revealing thing I tried - I was quite literally unaware that my system could do what it does until I very meticulously followed that method, though I now use a modified rule of thirds arrangement for my speakers.) Same for at least some treatment of first reflections, and then whatever you can do beyond that.

All of that said, equipment-wise, your Denon probably is the weakest link. Based on what you shared, you don't seem to use any analogue sources, so if you decide to go the external DAC route, you have the option of eliminating the need for a pre-amp with some of the choices on the market. Or you could get an integrated a la the Peachtree Grand Pre which would still give you the flexibility to use an analogue source down the road. If/when you go DAC shopping, keep in mind that while people frequently get hung up on the actual chip, the true differences are in implementation and output (buffer/line stage.) I've heard the exact same chip set sound m'eh and then sound really damned good in a different design.

Still, I wouldn't do anything until you've optimized (or at least experimented) with setup and the room as best as you're able (aesthetics/WAF/space constraints all notwithstanding.)

To reinforce the point, I'll share a story: I've moved systems around quite a bit over the past few months trying to determine which room would be ideal for the dedicated listening space I'd eventually like to create. My current space is good, mind you - concrete floor, enough real estate that my speakers are nearly 5' from back walls, etc., but it's not very treatable without it looking like complete kaka and there are some architectural obstacles as well; even I in my bachelorhood have aesthetic principles (and home resale value) to consider. I also recently went with an external DAC, and I'd describe the improvements as subtly dramatic (I know, it's a bit of an oxymoron, but it's the best way I can elucidate it.) Bearing in mind that I have a fairly decent rest of the chain, I can unequivocally say that moving the system into a few different rooms (one in particular) highlighted that I would have completely wasted the money I spent on that piece of equipment if placement and room were not at least somewhat optimized. Many - if not most - of the nuances it brought to light would have been lost in a sea of the bad things going on when we don't spend enough time on the other 50% of what we hear outside of our equipment (i.e., room interaction.)

Of course, you may have already done a lot of this, but I hope sharing some of my personal experiences might be informative. I spent the better part of my first decade in this hobby swapping out equipment like it was my job with nary a thought given to setup, the room, and what tangible improvements I was really trying to achieve (short of the ever nebulous "more realistic sound.") I only started getting real results when I took a much more reasoned and holistic approach, and I couldn't be happier with the outcome.

PS, Depending on your knowledge level (and I don't mean to infer anything about it with this suggestion) it might be helpful to read up on these things - an educated consumer and all that. I can recommend this one: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/024...SIN=0240821009. The portions about mastering may not be of interest (though I found them pretty enlightening) but it's a solid read that can help one make more informed buying decisions.

[BMWCCA]

I'm using 4345 bi-amp clones and a DVD player (Crown amps and Soundcraftsmen pre-amp) and I kept questioning the CD source so I purchased a hi-end Denon DVD with hi-fi audio DAC and found no improvement over the Sony DVD player I've had for a decade. But when a friend loaned me his Musical Fidelity V-DAC and I hooked it up through the coax digital output from the Sony, that seemed to give me the boost in clarity I was looking for. There is no time-frame for when the V-DAC must be returned but I'm now considering purchasing one of my own and seriously leaning toward the Emotiva XDA-2 which seems to offer quite a lot of features for $350.

A DAC would be a minimal expenditure for you and something that would be easy to sell off if it didn't provide the improvement you're looking for. Elevating the XPLs is another good tip but I can't imagine the weak-link being your speakers. There are always better speakers but you didn't say what your budget is for these improvements so starting small seems the best path.

[SEAWOLF97]

I've A/B XPL's against 250Ti's and other than bass, the difference is not large

if this is the real case ( I don't know) then the obvious answer is to add a sub.

the 250ti's have come up repeatedly in this thread ... I have a pair and love them. BUT I made the trip to a foreign land (Tsawwassen) to buy mine , HAVING NEVER HEARD A PAIR.
To be honest, was a little disappointed at first. They may not be the universal upgrade solution for every listener. They don't have the "classic JBL sound".

BUT I relied on what I've read here (and heck, had the money in hand and had driven that far , so I pulled the trigger , figured if they didn't sound great in my home ..could always resell.

long story shortened..they responded to a bigger amp (375wpc) very well .

I'd echo what already been said ...identify the problem ...define your goal ...find somewhere to audition your proposed solution , and DO IT.

If you buy at a reasonable price, you can usually resell at a reasonable price if it doesn't work out for you.

THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET.

(and don't play that expensive cable game)

[brett_s]

I appreciate all of your thoughts on the the topic. I can tell there is a lot of passion in the group!

As for what's wrong with my current system, absolutely nothing...but that doesn't mean it can't be better. I should have said that I really like the sound of my XPL's, I find their midrange to be specatcular. I love the sound stage they throw, and I personally don't find them to be lacking on the bass department. I know they aren't the best, but I'm happy with them now. And to upgrade to a signifigantly better speaker would cost some serious $$$$.

Between myself, friends, and family I've heard or owned, 240ti, l100, l100t, l100t3, cf120, cf150, studio series, L7 and a couple other smaller sets. I've also listened to some newer other brands such as B&W and Legacy. I'd like to hear the 1400 arrays, but that step up wouldn't be wife approved at this time anyway! I still want to hear them though.

I've spent a lot of time on room placement, doing the same crazy crawl around the room an inch at a time. Within the boundaries of "normal" looking, I'm pretty happy with where they are at. The room itself has limitations, but I'm ok with that. It's a family room/home theater/ audio room/etc, so I have to make some sacrafices.

When it comes down to it, I guess the items that I won't/can't change at this time would be the speakers and room. The other equipment is fair game.

The idea of hearing better systems is a great idea. I'm going to the Chicago Audio show in March with my wife in hopes of hearing something truly "hi-fi". The wife and I have made some trips to localish shops to hear systems and haven't heard anything dramatically better. Same with comparing with my friends and families systems. The truth of it that I don't know what I'm looking for at this time. Basically I've been switching out used equipment and just trying to build something that I think sounds good. Some things sound "better" and stay, some things sound the same or worse. If the sound the same or worse, back on the used marketplaces they go. I'm typically flipping something around and was looking to see what area I should concentrate.

I assumed the CD/DAC was the weak link, but I wasn't sure if it would yield anything signifigant. Apparently this should be an area that I should try a few used pieces. Am I correct to assume that if I use an external DAC, that the CD player is nothing more than a transport and i can use almost any universal player as a transport without affecting sound?

As for the amp, I do want to audition a couple other ones, just to see how much of difference there is. My buddy has a 350 wpc MAC that he runs his 240ti's on that we were planning on testing on my setup, but we haven't had a chance yet. I tried a bunch of other "similar" priced amps to the parasound unit and I really liked the overall warmth of the parasound unit and the bass it added. I'll keep looking though.

That was kinda my thinking. DAC and amp swaps.

Brett

[pathfindermwd]

(Cardas' Golden Cuboid was the most revealing thing I tried - I was quite literally unaware that my system could do what it does until I very meticulously followed that method, though I now use a modified rule of thirds arrangement for my speakers.)

Ahhh!!!

Once in awhile, you come across one of these golden nuggets! A method that doesn't require any money really, just a little bit of time and effort.

I've moved the speakers around in the room before, and I've always been a believer in proper placement (the equilateral triangle, some distance between walls). But I've never tried this before..

So, today I looked into it. The golden cuboid is based upon the back wall width, and while it gave the woofer measurements from the back and side walls, it didn't mention the woofer height. So, I found a golden mean calculator and found that third dimension. I was only 2.25" different. This was interesting because I had recently already raised the woofer height 6" and got alot better bass (which seemed counter-intuitive). Was it related to this room response model, or something else? I got even more curious...

I measured, I marked, I moved the speakers into the exact spot, I rechecked, leveled the speakers, and made sure the baffles were perfectly even. And, it was... remarkable! I dare say that for the first time, I was actually able to hear the speakers uncolored. They didn't sound like themselves, they really didn't sound like anything, I just heard the music. It was encompassing and the sweet spot was incredible. And then, I could hear where the speakers lacked, a little thinness, a little stumbling, things that were masked before.

And then, it was time to put them back. But, it was a great experience I'll perform as often as I can.

Of all the suggestions mentioned so far, I would grade this one the best for the money!

Thanks!

P.S. I made up my own Golden Cuboid blocks out of solid oak I had, put it under everything. Can't see the difference there yet.

[pathfindermwd]

Between myself, friends, and family I've heard or owned, 240ti, l100, l100t, l100t3, cf120, cf150, studio series, L7 and a couple other smaller sets. I've also listened to some newer other brands such as B&W and Legacy. I'd like to hear the 1400 arrays, but that step up wouldn't be wife approved at this time anyway! I still want to hear them though.

I've spent a lot of time on room placement, doing the same crazy crawl around the room an inch at a time. Within the boundaries of "normal" looking, I'm pretty happy with where they are at. The room itself has limitations, but I'm ok with that. It's a family room/home theater/ audio room/etc, so I have to make some sacrafices.

Am I correct to assume that if I use an external DAC, that the CD player is nothing more than a transport and i can use almost any universal player as a transport without affecting sound?

As for the amp, I do want to audition a couple other ones, just to see how much of difference there is. My buddy has a 350 wpc MAC that he runs his 240ti's on that we were planning on testing on my setup, but we haven't had a chance yet. I tried a bunch of other "similar" priced amps to the parasound unit and I really liked the overall warmth of the parasound unit and the bass it added. I'll keep looking though.

That was kinda my thinking. DAC and amp swaps.

Brett

Sounds like you are well into the game, more than your first post suggested!

First, yes, A DAC could be used to replace all of the built in DAC's in other equipment, as long as they have a digital output that the DAC can use; USB, Toslink, ect. The idea is to not have to pay for multiple high quality components with their own expensive DAC. I can only comment on the performance it gave my computer over the built in sound card, it was night and day. The other half of it's implementation came with JRiver which connects directly to the DAC bypassing Windows sound processor. The reason I bring this up again is that with JRiver EQ my tone control on my Pre is often off, and bass is great. I see being able to control the sound shape at the source as a major benefit, and believe it will not only get better in the future, but that computer controlled all in one- DAC's with Pre-Amp controls and Electronic XO's are just around the corner. All this and access all you music in any bitrate instantly too.


I have heard the Parasounds, and my friends really like them. They also really like the Emotiva's, and are using two of the XPA-1's for 500 watts of power per channel (not sure what they have decided about the Emotiva Pre-Amps). I have owned the NAD 375BEE, and I can't recommend it. I currently use the ADCOM GFA 555, with GTP 500.

[MikeBrewster77]

Very cool - glad it was as revealing for you as it was for me. Question for you: how much room between the speakers did you wind up with when you tried this method?

My experience was much the same as yours - I truly felt the speakers were as close as I was going to get them unencumbered by the nasty effects of room interaction. They were clear, notes dripped (in a positive, non-sticky, articulate way) out of them, vocals were squeaky clean, and the bass was just oh so spot on. The one fly in the ointment (and the reason I went with a different approach) was that the life was choked out of the soundstage as I only wound up with ~5' between the speakers per the formula. I noticed it immediately, so I queued up my reference imaging/soundstage track, which -- heresy, I know (on a few levels, actually) is Madonna's Erotica. The fact that I think it's her best album aside, the title track is a dense, yet exceptionally well-mastered electronic mix with lots of seemingly 3-D ambient effects coupled with massive bass throughout - it's truly a perfect test track to determine if imaging is well balanced with everything else (BONUS: It's also very fun to take to Hi-Fi shops. "Yes, I brought some of my own music; could you please play the first track on this disc on that $100K demo system?)

Anyway, it was disappointing to say the least - clear for sure, but extremely compressed. Of course, all of this stuff is a compromise, but the collapse of the truly amazing soundstage I'm used to is not one I'm willing to make.

But, it was educational, well-worth the effort, and I too still have the spots marked. May experiment with a modified version later down the road.

I measured, I marked, I moved the speakers into the exact spot, I rechecked, leveled the speakers, and made sure the baffles were perfectly even. And, it was... remarkable! I dare say that for the first time, I was actually able to hear the speakers uncolored. They didn't sound like themselves, they really didn't sound like anything, I just heard the music. It was encompassing and the sweet spot was incredible. And then, I could hear where the speakers lacked, a little thinness, a little stumbling, things that were masked before.

Thanks!

[pathfindermwd]

Very cool - glad it was as revealing for you as it was for me. Question for you: how much room between the speakers did you wind up with when you tried this method?

My experience was much the same as yours - I truly felt the speakers were as close as I was going to get them unencumbered by the nasty effects of room interaction. They were clear, notes dripped (in a positive, non-sticky, articulate way) out of them, vocals were squeaky clean, and the bass was just oh so spot on. The one fly in the ointment (and the reason I went with a different approach) was that the life was choked out of the soundstage as I only wound up with ~5' between the speakers per the formula.

Anyway, it was disappointing to say the least - clear for sure, but extremely compressed. Of course, all of this stuff is a compromise, but the collapse of the truly amazing soundstage I'm used to is not one I'm willing to make.

Mike I just had to try it again last night. With my GF sick and in bed early, I just couldn't help but to get back to the sound I was hearing. This hobby makes me feel guilty sometimes; like a crack addict, I said goodnight and I was off to get my fix!

The whole living room group got to sit center stage for the big audition, and by living room group I'm referring to all the speakers I can cram in there, not furniture..

Onto my impressions: First my wall is 11.667' wide, so my measure from the back wall is 5.2", 3.2 from the side. This puts my speakers about 4' apart. It looks a little odd to me, I feel like the Maxell guy with the JBL speakers. I would think that at that distance it would be very loud and hard on the ears, but it's actually a little quieter in the sweet spot, especially vocals.

The first thing I noticed is that I loose quite a bit of bass, especially with the L100S's on their stands. The 240ti's held their own, and the PS was pretty.. normal sounding.

My soundstage seemed good, but I'm still learning to listen in that way. They say that people listen differently, some can't listen to music if there isn't a realistic soundstage. I find trying to listen to soundstage a little exhausting, I focus on the vocal realism and clarity, and the detail of the instruments, and the feel of the bass/drums. I like when the speakers dissappear, but am not usually trying to find all the players on the stage. I would hazard to say that most people don't listen to music for soundstage, but more of a rock concert or club feel. Anyway, it's a change of focus. That said, this is the easiest way I have found to see the soundstage. I'm really still experimenting and while I think it sounds great, something is a bit off, a bit distracting. Perhaps they could be widened just a little bit, and increase the distance from the chair. Perhaps it's just distracting to see the speakers so close, while the soundstage is farther back. Vertigo?

I listened until almost 2 a.m.! I need to do more listening to figure this out. But one thing I feel safe to say is that if one doesn't put their speakers in that position they may not know what they really sound like. It may not be the most perfect position for speakers due to the speakers strengths/weaknesses, or for the listeners priorities, so that's where an adjustment may need to be made. But the position is kinda magical.

I'm now trying to figure out how to preserve alot of the good of the method, while putting them closer to where they normally sit.

[MikeBrewster77]

This hobby makes me feel guilty sometimes; like a crack addict...

I have no idea what you're talking about.



Yeah, I found myself back in the "magic spot" again today.

Onto my impressions: First my wall is 11.667' wide, so my measure from the back wall is 5.2", 3.2 from the side. This puts my speakers about 4' apart. It looks a little odd to me, I feel like the Maxell guy with the JBL speakers.

It is weird, right? Having the speakers all up in your face and so close together. I have to admit, I did think that maybe some of what I perceived as soundstage compression was due to the psychoacoustic effect of looking at the speakers so close to one another. After some extensive listening, I'm fairly certain it's not, though I don't think it helps.

The first thing I noticed is that I loose quite a bit of bass, especially with the L100S's on their stands. The 240ti's held their own, and the PS was pretty.. normal sounding.

I noticed a slight loss of the very, very bottom with the PS from having it a third into the room vs. the Cardas position. Even at a third in, I guess there was some boundary reinforcement going on, or I'm hitting a null with the Cardas placement.

They say that people listen differently, some can't listen to music if there isn't a realistic soundstage.

Unfortunately, I'm that guy. It's not necessarily that I listen for soundstage per se, and I've actually experienced soundstage representation in some systems where it basically calls attention to itself in a distracting way (think of the ping-pong technique so prevalent in early stereo recordings) but if it's not cohesively depicted with a rough approximation of space, scale and and depth, it does detract from my experience of feeling like I'm there. That lack of "there-ness" from an involving soundstage perspective was what I found missing with the pure Cardas placement, though the presence of vocals was striking and certainly introduced an impressive liveness to the presentation I found lacking in other arrangements.

I'm really still experimenting and while I think it sounds great, something is a bit off, a bit distracting. Perhaps they could be widened just a little bit, and increase the distance from the chair. Perhaps it's just distracting to see the speakers so close, while the soundstage is farther back. Vertigo?

Kinda felt the same way. I wondered if it was just the pure immediacy I mentioned earlier that is actually somewhat foreign. Maybe I'm just so accustomed to hearing some of the sludge this strips away that it's initially disconcerting? Still not sure yet, but I hear what you're saying.

I'm now trying to figure out how to preserve alot of the good of the method, while putting them closer to where they normally sit.

Well, as you might be able to see from the pic above, I now have mine positioned almost exactly on the y axis, while I've moved each speaker about 5 inches down the x to gain a bit more space between them. That gives me close to 6' between while still preserving a solid distance from side walls. In fact, I actually pulled them in a bit tighter than I initially had spread them, which surprised me; I would have expected to prefer more space between them, but found I lost some of that vocal immediacy I really enjoyed when I had them placed closer. I'm going to live with this for a few days to get my ears "reset" and then maybe experiment further from here.

Hope the GF feels better and you had a great New Year.

PS, sorry to the OP - didn't mean to hijack your thread.