Dad’s DIY Paragons make the move…

[Lee in Montreal]

What would the 2225 be used for?

[DanMan]

I'm wanting to replace the L15A's with much beefier woofers. So I did some searching for "JBL 15 inch woofer 16 ohm" and came up with the 2225J.

I am basically not seeing much in the searches that's beefier and 16 ohm... seems like those kinda speakers went out of style in the 1960's-1970's and I'm looking for something more from the 1980's-2000's as a replacement for the LE15A's.

Does that make sense? Am I barking (woof'ing) up the wrong tree??

[Lee in Montreal]

[DanMan]

thanks HJ! I didn't know about the 16ohm 2235. But I don't see many of those, except a post from 2011 where someone sells them infrequently for $700 a piece. That's a little out of the league I was hoping for...

[hjames]

I'm wanting to replace the L15A's with much beefier woofers. So I did some searching for "JBL 15 inch woofer 16 ohm" and came up with the 2225J.

I am basically not seeing much in the searches that's beefier and 16 ohm... seems like those kinda speakers went out of style in the 1960's-1970's and I'm looking for something more from the 1980's-2000's as a replacement for the LE15A's.

Does that make sense? Am I barking (woof'ing) up the wrong tree??

Yep - sounds like you are. The paragon is a very specific older system with very specific characteristics.
You are not going to be able to reengineer it into a sports car with nice low bass for modern music.
As Lee says, the laws of physics intrude - the box will only go so low.

Rather than butcher or hack on the system, its would be best to buy or build a sub to fill in the low frequencies you want -
heck - get a nice 18 sub and a powerful amp and pound away! I know you said you have a sub, but it sounds obvious
that whatever you have, its not what you need to do the job you want. Tell us a bit about your current sub ...

That way you are not stuck with trying to find cheap 16 ohm drivers that mostly don't exist (for cheap that is).

Oh, and I deleted my 2235 15inch comment because I didn't notice the 16 ohm requirement ...
that'd make it a deal breaker for me!

[DanMan]

Thanks again HJ. You bring up great points, which um, point, to my conundrum here with these speakers.

As I mentioned my goal for these Paragon(s) is to have them play "an all-around beefier low end sound". That's about it; I like the high end, it just the low end that I 'feel' is lacking. I already have a really beefy sub in the room; and I think the sub puts out enough bass. Its a Velodyne model (sorry JBL) HGS-18 (18" woofer, 1250 watts r.m.s. 3000 watt peaks - so it says in the marketing slick I think it's really a great sub with plenty of bass.



Maybe because I'm a purist, I'm wanting these Paragon(s) to output more low end. In my mind a 600-pound elephant-sized speaker box should be capable of more bass. I suppose my thinking is that a 40-50 year old woofer driver is going to have its (rather severe, comparatively) limitations and by switching it with something better (newer, bigger, beefier) it would produce lots more bass output.



But as I've probably mentioned on here, I'm a lowly civil engineer - I can design and technically comprehend everything that's made out of concrete i.e. if it sits perfectly still. Mechanical and Acoustical engineering really really, wait for it.... 'baffles' me



I'm curious as to how the box works (or doesn't work) for producing low end sounds (I thought a horn is a horn is a horn), but will not be able to understand much of the technical terminology (beyond Watts=Volts*Amps, and with some 'resistance' for good measure.



Thanks a bunch for helping me to understand this conundrum.

Dan

[Maron Horonzakz]

Another woofer that will work in the PARAGON is the TAD TL 1602,,,,BUT it is expensive,,, I own Three PARAGONS,,,useing JBL 150-4c ,,,2215,,, and TAD TL-1602...I personally like the JBL 150- 4c,,, For its dynamic SLAM,, Not much music below 32hz anyway...Unless your into organ or helicopter effects.

[DanMan]

That 'sounds' great Yes actually I love organ music played through the Paragon, and especially at full volume. The sound is completely utterly enormous with good organ music!

So I took my L250's upstairs (not such an easy job! the handtruck helped) in a smaller room and they are musically fantastic there.

But yeah the Paragon(s) are now in their place in the Home Theater room and its mostly for movies but also surround sound SACD and DVD-A. The 4655 (with similar diameter drivers) is great as centers (front and rear) at 100db/watt compared to these Paragon(s) at 98db/watt. The rear L+R at 92db/watt L100T can not even keep up with twice the amplifier power and +10db on their individual volume setting. I'm hoping for another 4655 to replace the L100T and the whole system should average 99db/watt.

But therein lies part of the problem... for movies, when the sound gets up to around 115 db the shear volume starts to drown out the subs (two Velo's HGS models) a little bit. Ergo part reason I was looking for beefier woofer drivers in the mains.

[DanMan]

Hi everyone!

Well it's been about a decade since my original post. Dad just turned 94, mom is 87, and they're moving to a retirement home next month.

Since my first post on this Paragon, I did wind up upgrading the woofers per suggestions, added 6 more surround-sound speakers, a 7 foot tall tri-folded horn subwoofer, and swapped out all the amplifiers.

I followed y'alls recommendations here, and somewhat semi-annually applied the loosening brake fluid to the LE15A surrounds. Around 2016, I started to notice a few more dB loss in the bass region of the 'left' Paragon. Rather heartbroken upon disassembly, to find the surround was cracked ... but took it as a sign that it was time for upgrades all the way around.

At dad's house in Houston, the 'left' Paragon was placed closest to an external wall for ~25 years; while it was never directly in the sun, perhaps the delirious effects of Houston's climate took it's toll on the woofer?

Here you can see what appears like severe weathering & gray'ish discoloration of the cone on the left LE15A (w/cracked surround), next to the still near-perfect working order 'black' cone of the right LE15A. Check out even the cork gasket discoloration! :-O Or did these come in different colors??



Not sure why I thought the LE15A were 16ohm woofers, they were stamped 8ohm. I upgraded both woofers with the 400W-continous 2225H. Extra one pictured here in case of emergencies.



Thanks to y'all and eBay for 2 brand NOS 400W-continous 2225H.



For surround sound speakers, I wanted similar components & specs to this Paragon: also 15" woofs & 1" titanium tweets, and near 100dB sensitivity. The only speakers already in my arsenal matching that were a couple of 4655.

I added 6 more JBL 4655's to the surround sound placements. Although these are more 'PA' or I've heard y'all refer to them as 'bowling alley' type speakers, they are wonderful for movie soundtracks!

Check out the 4655 playing the first notes from the movie "Edge of Tomorrow", playing all the way down to what 'looks' like a 10hz note (all directed to the center channel). Great start to a great movie!

https://youtu.be/U26hco5R09c

The 2225H woofers have a voracious appetite! Left and right Paragon each have their own power from 2 Adcom GFA-555-II bridged mono at 600wpc RMS with only 0.09%THD.

The left and right rear surround JBL 4655 are driven by a single Adcom GFA-5500 at 200wpc at a little higher 0.18% THD.

Both front center and rear center JBL 4655 are driven by a Yamaha MX-830 at 170wpc with a mere 0.003%THD.

I added 2 more JBL 4655 that sit in the corners behind each Paragon, pointing and tilting in the opposite direction, bouncing their sound off the front wall (as sort of 'echo' effect speakers) that reproduce the same signal as the Paragon mains driven by the 'A' channel of the RX-V3000 with 100wpc RMS at 0.02%THD. I use a dB meter with the preamp test tone to ensure the equivalent volume is produced on all speakers... but I have nothing that can keep up with the Paragon.



Must admit this 'echo' effect speaker placement is just something I envisioned to try, because there's space for them in the corners behind the Paragon, and space should be filled with sound, hah. They provide just shy of a 1dB increase, but it creates a neat echo effect especially in Concert/Stadium/Arena modes on the preamp.

The subwoofer is also in a 3-way folded horn enclosure, dimensions are approximately 7 feet x 4 feet x 2 feet. The sub is a prototype designed by a 'Doc Brown' scientist who moved onto inventing small-mountain sized subterranean microwave field ovens <?> to loosen the black gold from shale deposits in the Canadian oilfield. It is a one-of-a-kind subwoofer that he designed for use in the downtown Austin nightclub/bar venues.

Sub pictured here with original faceplate next to a regular size 12" subwoofer for comparison.



Continuing to next reply to finish story and add more pics...

[DanMan]

I tried a few other subwoofers for comparison sound tests.





There, I fixed it Changed the nameplate to JBL.





Sadly, the woofer is not JBL, but Sundown Audio, SA-15 4ohm 750W RMS.





I also upgraded its Dayton Audio SPA 500-watt amplifier, which I pulled from the sub enclosure and remounted it in a separate box with a new Dayton SPA 1000-watt plate amplifier.





Conjoined, the 2,900 watt RMS system is a little bit spectacular for movies. Musically, the 4655 show off some of their true (dis)colorization, but for heavy electronic-instrument music, like Frank Zappa's 5.1 Halloween DVD-A, it is insanely awesome.


Now with some bass pressure off the Paragon and onto the subs, the system delivers a bone-crushing experience at 105 in-seat decibels with zero distortion all night long for about 5 years now. The Adcom's all have clip warning lights which just barely illuminate on holidays.



Feels like I've maxed-out on the number of amplifiers & speakers & SPL for this here system. I'm still old-school digital coax or fiber optic cables for digital sound (when I'm not the Analog Kid), but those new HDMI-audio Atmos sound systems look promising to accommodate additional vertical placement of more & more JBL speakers.


Hope you enjoy.