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Thread: 4412 power handling.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Chris Brown's Avatar
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    4412 power handling.

    The specs for the 4412 list it's power handling at 150watts. I am at a bit of a loss as to why.

    I currently have a pair of L150s and a pair of L100Ts, which list power handling at 300W and 400W respectively.

    But the 4412 uses the same (other than color) 128H as the L150, and the same 104H-2 and 035Ti as the L100T, so it would seem like it's not a limitation of the drivers. Why would the power handling be cut in half relative to these other speakers?

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    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    4412 =professional product ... target user more likely to understand specs.
    L150(a)/L112 = consumer product ... target user brainwashed by industry marketing/specsmanship.

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    Senior Member Chris Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    4412 =professional product ... target user more likely to understand specs.
    L150(a)/L112 = consumer product ... target user brainwashed by industry marketing/specsmanship.
    Makes sense, thanks.

    I hope that in practice their power handling will be roughly comparable to my existing speakers, because I can see myself putting much more than 150w into them. But really, I can't imagine they will let me down

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    Senior Member rdgrimes's Avatar
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    Power doesn't hurt speakers, people do that. (and poor quality sources/content)

    Given a high quality music source and good clean amplification, you're safe with 1000WPC as long as you don't TRY to hurt them.

    I'd guess you'd find a sweet spot at around 200-250WPC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
    The specs for the 4412 list it's power handling at 150watts. I am at a bit of a loss as to why.



    I currently have a pair of L150s and a pair of L100Ts, which list power handling at 300W and 400W respectively.

    But the 4412 uses the same (other than color) 128H as the L150, and the same 104H-2 and 035Ti as the L100T, so it would seem like it's not a limitation of the drivers. Why would the power handling be cut in half relative to these other speakers?
    Hello,

    it is not power handling, it is power rating according to spec at 150 watts pink noise with a 6 dB crest factor for that nominal impedance load.
    A use of a 300 watts amp with a 3 dB headroom means that one is on the safe side. Again, my understanding



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    Senior Member gferrell's Avatar
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    I have a pair of 4412a running 250w/ch with no problem. Very accurate sounding speakers in a small room.
    XPL 200's, XPL 160's, XPL 140's, L7's, L5's, L3's, L1's Homemade L Center, 4412's, 4406, L60T's, L20T's

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    Senior Member Chris Brown's Avatar
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    I use a Yamaha C-80 to run each of my two Yamaha P2201 amps in bridged mono. The amps do 230wpc in stereo but should be good for 600-700wpc+ in bridged mono.

    When I was running my L150s from my Yamaha M-2 (Also similar to a P2201, but slightly better @ 240wpc) there were a few occasions where I bottomed out the 128H woofer. It sounded like someone using a wrist-rocket slingshot hitting a paper-plate at full force and it makes my heart skip a few beats every time.

    I was thinking that maybe at only 230-240wpc, when the amp is being run so close to it's limits, maybe it has less than ideal control over the woofer. I haven't had it happen since I greatly increased my power by running the P2201s in bridged mono, but I'm not exactly trying to make it happen either. It's always something that is in the back of my mind when I listen loud. Since the 4412s use a 128H also, it will be interesting to see how they perform in a similar situation.

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    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    If want to avoid damaging the 128H you should use a subsonic filter just under the bassreflex (or passive radiator) tuning.
    Something like a But 18dB or 24dB/oct at 25 or 30Hz should do the trick.
    It should reduce the bottoming out phenomenon you encountered, and also reduce distortion.

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
    I use a Yamaha C-80 to run each of my two Yamaha P2201 amps in bridged mono. The amps do 230wpc in stereo but should be good for 600-700wpc+ in bridged mono.

    When I was running my L150s from my Yamaha M-2 (Also similar to a P2201, but slightly better @ 240wpc) there were a few occasions where I bottomed out the 128H woofer. It sounded like someone using a wrist-rocket slingshot hitting a paper-plate at full force and it makes my heart skip a few beats every time.

    I was thinking that maybe at only 230-240wpc, when the amp is being run so close to it's limits, maybe it has less than ideal control over the woofer. I haven't had it happen since I greatly increased my power by running the P2201s in bridged mono, but I'm not exactly trying to make it happen either. It's always something that is in the back of my mind when I listen loud. Since the 4412s use a 128H also, it will be interesting to see how the perform in a similar situation.
    Some back story on what you were listening to and at what sound levels would add to the story.

    I looked back at the brochures and such I have on the L150 and 4412. With the L150 JBL was recommending amps that have 300 watt capacity and not really a specific power rating. The reason mentioned for the 300 watt amp was to provide sufficient power head room for momentary transients. For the 4412 they were referencing an actual power rating of 150 watts pink noise which I presume to mean a continuous power rating.
    David F
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    Senior Member Chris Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidF View Post
    Some back story on what you were listening to and at what sound levels would add to the story.
    I used my L150s as mains in my home theater for about 2 years, ~10 years ago. The first time I ever had an 128H bottom out was while watching Apollo 13, during the Saturn V Blast-off scene. Other than that, one of my favorite genres of music is bands that straddle the line between electronic rock and Drum&Bass/dubstep. Bands like Pendulum or Example. I've had it happen while listening to those bands before. I listen pretty loud, but I can't say exactly how loud because unfortunately my cheap SPL meter doesn't take readings above 130dB

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    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    It is not *only* a matter of power handling (thermal).
    It only takes 10W to exceed the Xmax of a 128H with a 10Hz signal in a typical 4412 box, without subsonic filter.
    And signals at these kind of frequencies are plenty in modern movies soundtracks and electronic music...

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    Senior Member JuniorJBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
    I listen pretty loud, but I can't say exactly how loud because unfortunately my cheap SPL meter doesn't take readings above 130dB



    At that rate, it wont be long before you cant hear anything anyways. If you do that for about 30 minutes a day for say 6 months, you will no longer need any audio gear cause you won't be able to hear.

    But before you loose your hearing, get some pro gear with some 4645c's and turn it up. 12" home woofers are not for you.
    Always fun learning more.......

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Brown View Post
    I used my L150s as mains in my home theater for about 2 years, ~10 years ago. The first time I ever had an 128H bottom out was while watching Apollo 13, during the Saturn V Blast-off scene. Other than that, one of my favorite genres of music is bands that straddle the line between electronic rock and Drum&Bass/dubstep. Bands like Pendulum or Example. I've had it happen while listening to those bands before. I listen pretty loud, but I can't say exactly how loud because unfortunately my cheap SPL meter doesn't take readings above 130dB
    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    It is not *only* a matter of power handling (thermal).
    It only takes 10W to exceed the Xmax of a 128H with a 10Hz signal in a typical 4412 box, without subsonic filter.
    And signals at these kind of frequencies are plenty in modern movies soundtracks and electronic music...
    Yeah, that makes more sense on the nature of the low end issues. It's not so much about amp power as it is about combining low/very low bass with high sound levels which makes for extreme excursion. These models certainly encourage high-power use and offer up low distortion numbers but don't really fit this kind of application.
    David F
    San Jose

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    Senior Member gferrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    If want to avoid damaging the 128H you should use a subsonic filter just under the bassreflex (or passive radiator) tuning.
    Something like a But 18dB or 24dB/oct at 25 or 30Hz should do the trick.
    It should reduce the bottoming out phenomenon you encountered, and also reduce distortion.
    How do you make one of those?
    XPL 200's, XPL 160's, XPL 140's, L7's, L5's, L3's, L1's Homemade L Center, 4412's, 4406, L60T's, L20T's

  15. #15
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    You need a piece of equipment between your source and your amplifer.
    Some preamplifiers/receivers can do it, but most of the time it is not very flexible.

    If you want to avoid going digital you can buy something like the Reckorn B2, or if your are into DIY you can build one using the BX63a schematic (ignoring the LP filter, and using a lower Q for the HP filter to avoid the 6dB boost).

    If you can stand a digital conversion, or if your source is digital to start with, then you can also use something like a DCX2496, or better still a minidsp openDRC, which will also let you do a lot of other things like manual EQ, phase linearization, DRC, loudness, ...

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