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Thread: The M9500 Thread

  1. #1
    Senior Member Guido's Avatar
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    The M9500 Thread

    Dear Forum Members,
    as you may know I'm a JBL maniac in the last and most serious phase of the disease :-)
    Although my 4313B and my 4435 are still into cabinet production while the drivers are waiting on the shelve it came to my mind that the M9500 would be a nice thing to play with.
    Call me crazy and you are right. For those who think I have enough of this JBL stuff I can only state that I'll never have enough of this gorgeous stuff :-)

    To buy a pair of M9500 is almost impossible what we all know. To build them should be possible. A lot of information is digged inside this forum and I want to dig it out and expand it here in this thread. I hope for your input as many things are still unclear.

    Network
    The network schematic is available somewhere here in the forum
    It should be no problem for an advanced DIY to copy them

    Missing information network
    DCR of 3,0/1,5/1,0/4,2/0,6 mH inductors
    Type PP or PS of the bypass caps


    Cabinet
    The cabinet information is digged in the user manual which is available somewhere here in the forum
    Upper LF enclosure 78l, 35 Hz tuning (2,8 cuft)
    Lower LF enclosure 115l, 28 Hz tuning (4,1 cuft)

    Missing information cabinet
    Port size and duct (could be calculated but one should better stay original)
    Dimension of cabinets and position of drivers and ports (this could be calculated from pictures)


    Components / Drivers
    So this is the most tedious part of the game. Collecting the transducers. But maybe it is not that difficult?

    1400ND
    Somewhere here I remember a thread (couldn't find) that is quoting GT saying that the only significant difference between 1400Pro and 1400ND is that the Pro version uses a cloth surround where the ND version uses a foam surround. There are a lot of 1400pro's out there right?
    Reverse said this means one can use
    1) an 1400Pro and resurround it with foam surrounds to get a 1400ND
    2) an 1400Pro and recone it as 1400ND to get a 1400ND

    475ND
    Well there are some threads dealing with the 475ND and 2450 / 2451 similarities and Giskard recently announced a comparison sheet. Of course the 2450 is not the same drivers but I'm convinced that the 2450 with the 2450-SL (coated dia with ribs?) or 2450SL-A (coated dia w/o ribs?) can be used as substitude for the 475ND. Especially here some more input is needed.

    H9500
    Again the Horn. Here I see only one chance. The horn need to be purchased from JBL. If it is not available one would need very good connections inside JBL to obtain the CNC data. I've no clue if this is possible. Here we especially will need Giskard or Don.

    Missing information components / drivers
    Availability/price of the 1400ND
    Availability/price of the C8R1400ND
    Foam dimension (this can be discussed with Rick Cobb as soon as one inspects the according dimensions of the 1400 cone and basket)
    Availability/price of the 475ND
    Availability/price of the D8R475ND
    Compatibility of 2450SL, 2450SL-A, 475ND
    Availability/price of the H9500

    What did I forget?
    What input can you give?
    Last edited by Guido; 09-29-2004 at 01:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    Hi Guido,

    I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect the necessary help "from within" to build a current K2 product out of scavenged parts.

    I do applaud the idea of building an MTM design - I'd just recommend sticking with available parts , like the ME150H ( for 15 inchers ) or LE120 ( 12" - if someone ever chimes in about this speakers salient features ). Both of these transducers are available from Harman.

    That said - making up a 1400nd would be possible, though expensive, in the end. If you went the route of getting 1400 Pro and "refoaming" you'd still have to concoct your own version of Aquaplas to add more weight to the cone. You'd need a means of applying it in a metered out mass. It's anyones guess as to how much to apply. I'd guess 30 to 40 grams. If a person can't measure Fs and determine Ts parameters - then this is a route to avoid. Reconing 1400Pros to Nds would be a lot more straight-forward, though costly.

    Rediaphragmingsome large format drivers with 2450SL diaphragms is pretty routine. IMO, A twelve inch based MTM would be better balanced to the newer 3" diaphragm compression drivers - though getting the right aquaplassed diaphragms might be a problem .

    H9500 Horn; Maybe Harman will sell H9500 horns. I did track a pair of MDF H9500 clones that sold on eBay - a year and a half ago for ( $1260.00). The maker was Canadian and the buyer was from Taiwan. In fact , the buyer looked to be the people from Usher electronics. Ushers' D-2 speaker was released without any apparent influence from that horns design. So maybe they'd sell the horns ( if they have them ). Usher is here
    A comparable horn wouldn't be impossible to design from scratch for the observant woodworker .

    Earl K

  3. #3
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    M9500 or K2-S9500

    There is a typically silent San Francisco Bay Area member of the forum who owns the K2 version of this speaker. He may decide to chime in here and offer his opinions. He has offered to let me come by and measure his H9500 horn for cloning purposes. I haven't been too interested in doing so as there are so many horns and so little time. It is also a bit of a PITA to do and I have been pursuing other directions.

    If you are hell bent on creating these speakers I would keep an eye toward eBay and accumulate the drivers. I believe they have all been on there at one time or another. Once they are procured, the rest can be dealt with. If you really are after the M9500, you shouldn't substitute drivers. An MTM with different drivers is simply a different MTM. The drivers, network and cabinet tuning are what makes the speaker.

    Widget

  4. #4
    Niklas Nord
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    I think it would be better to aim at building the s9500 instead
    and a pair of separate subs and cross these with the s9500
    @ 60 or 80hz. Corner placed subs will lower distorsion on the
    s9500, a big improvement to spare the s9500 1400nd drivers
    from handling the lowest hertz.

    I´m crossing my s9500 @ 60hz to one SUB1500 that is corner
    placed behind the s9500.

    I would try something else perhaps, using a 2450, 2446 or 2451
    driver with either two 2226, 2227, 2242, 2206 or 1400nd and
    have these play from 80hz and cross these some higher than
    the original s9500, maybe 750hz with a digital crossover.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Guido's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the input until now!

    Earl, thanks for reminding me to the additional mass of appr. 40gr. I did not think about this. IF I'll get the 4 1400Pros I'm after I will try a massring + Foam edges.

    Widget, thanks for offering help with the Horn. I'll try it first in Europe (Niklas?) but will come back to if neccessary.

    Niklas I will need your support for the horn contour templates and some sketches.

    What really surprises me is the respect that everyone has for JBLs copyrights.
    What I build for my own purpose is my thing as long as I do not make money with it. Especially when JBL only sells the K2s from time to time only and if they do I need to be king of zamunda to be important enough to get them.

    I'm trying to get 2 Precision Directivity Waveguides from them since 6 month and they claim not to have them! What the heck do they screw in the PD speakers? Why the heck they have them in the horn list? JBLs arrogance can be annoying!

    Nobody can stop me from cloning a H9500 Horn which can't be sooo dificult with the help from a K2 Owner. Look at the K2 plant pictures and you can see that they make it from 2 partial discs and MDF sidewalls. Once one have the contour of the disk its easy to CNC!

    My cabinet builder will be pleased to produce the cabinets and that's it.

    It will last month's to do them but it is a nice thing to think about while listening to my 4343s

  6. #6
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    Hi Guido

    IF I'll get the 4 1400Pros I'm after I will try a massring + Foam edges.
    I suspect that using mass rings might be too "excursion limiting" for these newer K2 transducers - but I don't know, that's just a hunch. And after listening to these ME150s with their aquaplas on the cone , I wouldn't want to go back to a big cone without it. I like it on the le14, the le10, and 2450SL . It makes voicing a speaker a lot easier when it's present.

    Regarding Copyrights:
    Some people here have close ties to JBL and can't be expected to jeapordize their relationship to that company by being seen to facilitate copies of existing products. If JBL is willing to sell the parts through them - then it's a win - win situation for everyone . I'm a retail user only - that's why I'll offer ideas and hints of similar products..

    I also like Niklas idea of committing to using a sub with the smaller S9500. That makes a lot of sense. No one I've been aware of has ever thought of these 1400nd(s) as subwoof capable - I've heard quite the opposite .

    regards <> Earl K
    Last edited by Earl K; 09-30-2004 at 03:05 PM.

  7. #7
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Earl K

    I also like Niklas idea of committing to using a sub with the smaller S9500. That makes a lot of sense. No one I've been aware of has ever thought of these 1400nd(s) as subwoof capable - I've heard quite the opposite .
    I'll second that. Or would that be to third that, (thrice?) In any event, the more I play around with this stuff the more I think to get a system with clarity, speed (transient response), and extension, the best way, whether using a 1400ND, 1500AL, or any other large woofer is to go the sub woofer route. The 4343 and 4345 aren't exactly using a sub, but they are heading in that direction and I find using a woofer to 50-60Hz and crossing to a true sub is the best solution I have found to date.

    Widget

  8. #8
    Super Moderator Hofmannhp's Avatar
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    mid horn

    Originally posted by Guido , (edited by HP)
    .... Look at the K2 plant pictures and you can see that they make it from 2 partial discs and MDF sidewalls. Once one have the contour of the disk its easy to CNC!
    .......

    Hi Guido,

    it seems that your virus is a lot more resitent than mine.....

    here's the "old" idea for the horn:
    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...&threadid=1843

    let me please know what's going on

    HP
    Please help us save more info about the vintage systems. Let us register your speakers and drivers.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Hofmannhp's Avatar
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    learning english

    Originally posted by Mr. Widget
    ...... Or would that be to third that, (thrice?) ........
    Widget
    thrice.......

    this forum is the best education .......never saw this before


    HP
    Please help us save more info about the vintage systems. Let us register your speakers and drivers.

  10. #10
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Well that was a joke pointed at Senator John Kerry. In a failed effort to seem more like a real person he used that term discussing the fact that he had been wounded in action three times. Unfortunately for him, the reason you hadn't heard the term before is that we don't use the word in "normal" speech. It currently resides primarily in the lexicon of pretentious words.

    Of course if the "W" has his way we will all say nucular instead of the proper and common nuclear.

    Widget

  11. #11
    Obsolete
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    Kerry? Bush? The talent pool must be bankrupt!

  12. #12
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Giskard
    Kerry? Bush? The talent pool must be bankrupt!
    It has become a fool's job... so that's what we get.
    Some are just more benign.

    Widget

  13. #13
    Niklas Nord
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    So, what drivers to use then?

  14. #14
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    The ones Guido posted?

    I'd like to see something done with dual LE14H-1's too.

  15. #15
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Giskard

    I'd like to see something done with dual LE14H-1's too.
    I don't have personal experience with them, but I was under the impression that the LE14H and LE14H-1 were not really recommended above about 500Hz due to their heavily aquaplas treated cones.

    Have you tried them up to 650Hz? I have noticed a marked improvement in the upper bass and lower midrange of the 1500AL over the 2235H in a system where I am crossing over around 600-650Hz. I realize these are very different woofers, but I would expect the 2235H is even better in this range than the LE14s.

    Widget

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