TAD 4003 Unobtainium

[speakerdave]

The TAD TD4003 has been discontinued according to a couple of supplier websites, including Pro Audio Design. I haven't heard Ale or Go To or Cogent or whatever other fabulously priced drivers I haven't even heard of, but I believe the TD4003 was a serious contender for best in the world. I know for some of you the TAD itself seems fabulously priced, so I will tell you that my context is that my kids are through college, I'm still working well past the expected retirement age because I like my job, and my personal vehicle I bought used 17 years ago for $7000. It's a choice that would be possible to a lot of people. Anyway, now for the DIYer who thinks large format beryllium compression drivers are a key it is Brush-Wellman or nothing.

I discovered this site several years ago looking for information about the LE8T to make TV speakers for a Sony CRT television. Somehow that segued to a pair of 4345's. One conclusion I came to early on was that ebay had changed the arithmetic of DIY and buying used made more sense than building; a bit of luck in the used market for a system was less costly--the whole was less than the some of the parts-- unless you aspired to world class speakers--and you can get the necessary components.

About that time Project May got started and I had a chance to hear some sounds that made me think it was actually possible to go for a world class DIY speaker. During a break in the Project May analysis we lifted down the upper 1500al woofer cabinet, removed the H9800 horn and driver and set a TD4000/H4003 in its place. The price of those components was for me a ridiculous sum of money to spend on hi fi, but it was so clearly superior to anything else I had heard that it became a matter of that or do something else for a hobby. Even then the horns were no longer available, and luckily I was some time afterward offered a pair of early trial pieces in the clone run at a wonderful price. Soon after I was warned that the TD4003 supply might become problematical and I plunked down for a pair.

In a way, I'm amazed they stayed on the market as long as they did. I was well into acquiring the bits for a wannabe M9500, so I kept to the 1400nd woofers and never got into any of the 1500al buys. I regret this now, although I think the 1400nd does not give away a great deal to the 1500al; still it is certainly a further development of the JBL woofer.

I'm still working on the exact arrangement for deploying these elements, but I have been so enjoying these speakers that it makes me a bit sad to think that none of the key pieces is any longer available. The DIY impulse is from one point of view iconoclastic and exclusive, but from another I have always felt it is framed by a democratic push.

I had heard some time ago that the TAD professional pieces were in short supply because TAD was doing better devoting its beryllium capacities to very expensive home speakers. JBL has made it clear it is not interested in selling components. Now I've read recently, perhaps here, that other manufacturers--Tannoy, Focal-- are following suit. I know there are sound technical and business reasons for making that choice, but I just don't like it that the driver manufacturers are corralling their best goods behind expensive veneers, beyond the reach of the working guy with a table saw. It's symptomatic of a larger arc that has been shaping up for a while and may very soon be anchored very firmly on its objective. But that is to go off topic and violate forum rules.

[pos]

What driver are you using on your TH4003 clones?
JBL 1.5" + truextent diaphragms?

[speakerdave]

What driver are you using on your TH4003 clones?
JBL 1.5" + truextent diaphragms?

The TAD TD4003.

[pos]

So you are running dual 1400nd in a 4435-style crossover arrangement with TH4003/TD4003 on top?
Would you mind posting some pics please?

[edgewound]

The TAD TD4003 has been discontinued according to a couple of supplier websites, including Pro Audio Design. I haven't heard Ale or Go To or Cogent or whatever other fabulously priced drivers I haven't even heard of, but I believe the TD4003 was a serious contender for best in the world. I know for some of you the TAD itself seems fabulously priced, so I will tell you that my context is that my kids are through college, I'm still working well past the expected retirement age because I like my job, and my personal vehicle I bought used 17 years ago for $7000. It's a choice that would be possible to a lot of people. Anyway, now for the DIYer who thinks large format beryllium compression drivers are a key it is Brush-Wellman or nothing.

I discovered this site several years ago looking for information about the LE8T to make TV speakers for a Sony CRT television. Somehow that segued to a pair of 4345's. One conclusion I came to early on was that ebay had changed the arithmetic of DIY and buying used made more sense than building; a bit of luck in the used market for a system was less costly--the whole was less than the some of the parts-- unless you aspired to world class speakers.

About that time Project May got started and I had a chance to hear some sounds that made me think it was actually possible to go for a world class DIY speaker. During a break in the Project May analysis we lifted down the upper 1500al woofer cabinet, removed the H9800 horn and driver and set a TD4000/H4003 in its place. The price of those components was for me a ridiculous sum of money to spend on hi fi, but it was so clearly superior to anything else I had heard that it became a matter of that or do something else for a hobby. Even then the horns were no longer available, and luckily I was some time afterward offered a pair of early trial pieces in the clone run at a wonderful price. Soon after I was warned that the TD4003 supply might become problematical and I plunked down for a pair.

In a way, I'm amazed they stayed on the market as long as they did. I was well into acquiring the bits for a wannabe M9500, so I kept to the 1400nd woofers and never got into any of the 1500al buys. I regret this now, although I think the 1400nd does not give away a great deal to the 1500al; still it is certainly a further development of the JBL woofer.

I'm still working on the exact arrangement for deploying these elements, but I have been so enjoying these speakers that it makes me a bit sad to think that none of the key pieces is any longer available. The DIY impulse is from one point of view iconoclastic and exclusive, but from another I have always felt it is framed by a democratic push.

I had heard some time ago that the TAD professional pieces were in short supply because TAD was doing better devoting its beryllium capacities to very expensive home speakers. JBL has made it clear it is not interested in selling components. Now I've read recently, perhaps here, that other manufacturers--Tannoy, Focal-- are following suit. I know there are sound technical and business reasons for making that choice, but I just don't like it that the driver manufacturers are corralling their best goods behind expensive veneers, beyond the reach of the working guy with a table saw. It's symptomatic of a larger arc that has been shaping up for a while and may very soon be anchored very firmly on its objective. But that is to go off topic and violate forum rules.

I hear you loud and clear. The State of DIY Audio has changed. The market is shrinking, companies are consolidating, economics of manufacturing in the US has been squandered to cheap labor locations....resulting in disastrous delays for quality product...which actually makes the cost of manufacturing multiply. I don't get the math in that scenario but obviously people smarter than myself with advanced degrees seem to have it all figured out....on paper...or an LCD screen, anyway. It's interesting how sometimes the best laid plans don't pan out.

[4313B]

obviously people smarter than myself [snip] seem to have it all figured out

They are not and they do not.

The TAD TD4003 has been discontinued according to a couple of supplier websites, including Pro Audio Design.

No loss. I never liked TAD anyway. It's a personal issue I have with the company itself. I couldn't care less about their effing products. Never did.

I regret this now, although I think the 1400nd does not give away a great deal to the 1500al; still it is certainly a further development of the JBL woofer.

The engineering in the 1500AL is "light years better than previous transducers". It's absurd that everyone who wanted a pair couldn't get a pair. I "followed the rules" (after JBL changed the rules and I could no longer get a pair at a time) and ordered twenty-five of them and the end result was twenty because "we ran out of parts to complete the run of twenty-five". I don't even know how to respond to that kind of horseshit.

it makes me a bit sad to think that none of the key pieces is any longer available

That pretty much killed my interest in Project May. I thought it was originally going to be a fantastic DIY project that people could emulate as desired until it morphed into a specialty project and ultimately ended up as pretty much a one off. It's a real shame, certainly not in the same spirit as legacy JBL.

[just4kinks]

Dave,

Was it the td4003's that you demoed for me when I visited last year? No wonder it sounded so good... the imaging blew me away, I was thinking about the experience for days afterwards. I wasn't familiar with TAD at the time, but I enjoyed yours enough that I started budgeting for my own pair.

Anyways, have you verified that they're discontinued? The 2002's are no longer stocked, but they will make them to order if you're willing to wait. And there was a massive price increase across the board a couple months ago... odd move if they were planning on discontinuing.

Joe

[speakerdave]

So you are running dual 1400nd in a 4435-style crossover arrangement with TH4003/TD4003 on top? . . . .

I have the 1400nd's in M9500 type separate enclosures, i.e. one 20% larger than optimum and one 20% undersized. This and the different tuning provide the "banana" roll-off GT describes, and I prefer. I have mine stacked with the horn on top and am running the woofers parallel. They are going to be WHW'd.

. . . . Would you mind posting some pics please?

Soon

[speakerdave]

. . . . That pretty much killed my interest in Project May. I thought it was originally going to be a fantastic DIY project that people could emulate . . . .

That was my interest as well. I think that is implicit in DIY speakers and sharing ideas about them.

. . . . I never liked TAD anyway. It's a personal issue I have with the company itself. I couldn't care less about their effing products. Never did . . . .

TAD made it possible for me to care about them by making world class drivers and selling them raw. I try to imagine a world in which the 476Be and the 1500al are available. I nearly get it in focus and--poof--it goes away.

. . . . I "followed the rules" (after JBL changed the rules and I could no longer get a pair at a time) and ordered twenty-five of them and the end result was twenty because "we ran out of parts to complete the run of twenty-five". I don't even know how to respond to that kind of horseshit . . . .

I do...see above.

. . . . The engineering in the 1500AL is "light years better than previous transducers" . . . .

Yeah, fantastic . . . . and if you remember, I gave up my chance to get them when the number ran short, because I already had the 1400nd's on hand. Anybody with a pair available PM me. The 1400nd is certainly musically credible--very low distortion; my doubles play down into the high twenties and articulate very nicely to the horn--good enough for anybody, but it would be nice to have the SOTA.

[speakerdave]

. . . . Anyways, have you verified that they're discontinued? . . . .

Pro Audio Design says not available; the European site has archived their information on it; e-speakers has not downgraded it's catalogue page, so they may still have stock. You could check with Widget. I hope I'm wrong.

Dave,

Was it the td4003's that you demoed for me when I visited last year? No wonder it sounded so good... the imaging blew me away, I was thinking about the experience for days afterwards. I wasn't familiar with TAD at the time, but I enjoyed yours enough that I started budgeting for my own pair . . . .

Yeah, thanks--I'm glad you liked them. I can't remember what my electronics setup was then--possibly biamp with two Bryston 10B's or a Bryston 10B and White Instruments 4004 double-tuned fully passive EQ's for compensation. I'm experimenting now with biwiring--using a charge coupled passive high pass. The difference is not subtle. Apparently all the circuitry, though excellent, was congesting the signal. The sound stage is opened up, voices and instruments are much more precisely separated spatially and sonically--the latter even outside of the sweet spot--and all much clearer, much cleaner, much sweeter. Problem is that biamping the woofers is so much drier than the M9500 passive low pass (based on the schematic that was posted here)--I've been listening biamped for a long time--the passive low pass sounds woolly to me (I know my preamp is a little woolly--driving the woofers direct tended to balance that out). I'm going to have to go to a combination using a UREI 525 to dial in the low pass frequency and put the 4004 back in the low pass branch to provide the necessary compensation for the 1400nd's only. I think that will settle the electronics. Then I will restack everything WHW. I've decided to clean up my mules for the permanent cabinets, so I need to work up a heavy base and unify the stack to stabilize it in case . . . .

[4313B]

TAD made it possible for me to care about them by making world class drivers and selling them raw. I try to imagine a world in which the 476Be and the 1500al are available. I nearly get it in focus and--poof--it goes away.

I have a tale to tell you sometime about the whole Project May debacle. I've been told that it is quite entertaining. Very little of it is fit for print on the Internet.

I do...see above.

I prefer the "This is Sparta!!!" and kicking them down a deep well solution.

it would be nice to have the SOTA.

That would be the two new 1501AL variants JBL just finished cooking up. "way better than the original 1500AL"

No good to any of us though, I doubt any of us will ever see one outside of a finished product.

TAD made it possible for me to care about them by making world class drivers and selling them raw.

Yeah, JBL did that once too. Evidently it didn't work out very well for them.

I've noticed a fundamental shift in my perception of JBL over the last ten years as one friend after another has retired, been fired, left, etc. It isn't even JBL I care about anymore. Quite frankly, I'd prefer they get bulldozed off into the Pacific after the last person I care about leaves. Rather it is my interest in what G.T. is going to do next. It isn't about JBL anymore, it's about G.T. He's the man who has designed all the systems I've thoroughly enjoyed to no end over the last thirty-some years. JBL has become nothing more than a facilitator.

[speakerdave]

I have a tale to tell you sometime about the whole Project May debacle. I've been told that it is quite entertaining. Very little of it is fit for print on the Internet . . . .

I've always had a feeling that "we" were not without responsibiiity in JBL's adamantine adherence to its decision not to sell drivers.

[4313B]

I've always had a feeling that "we" were not without responsibiiity in JBL's adamantine adherence to its decision not to sell drivers.

Nope. Just the opposite. I think there is alot of misperception out there.

Not that it matters now. It really is a dead horse at this point.

[speakerdave]

Nope. Just the opposite. I think there is alot of misperception out there.

Not that it matters now. It really is a dead horse at this point.

Hmmm . . . I'm glad to know that.

[4313B]

Well, in any case I'm glad you have a system that you are looking forward to completing. You have some very nice components and the results should be first class.