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Thread: Frequencies above 20k

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    and a younger person likely would hear the difference.
    I would have to witness such a spectacle first hand.

    More importantly, how do you like the sound of the 045 in the 1400 Array where it actually matters? At 20 kHz it is, of course, a laser beam, but up to that point it's pretty damn awesome eh?

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    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


    Widget
    A crossover point doesn't mean that below this point there's no output, it's a roll-off, depending on the slope you could have still very noticeable output below the crossover point.
    a 6db/oct slope at 10kHz Xover point means that at 5kHz you still have 25% of the power output.
    My avatar: 4520 loaded with 2225H on E140 frames,
    1x B&C 12PE32 on custom front loaded horn, 2x 2426 on 2370.

  3. #18
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaulive View Post
    A crossover point doesn't mean that below this point there's no output, it's a roll-off, depending on the slope you could have still very noticeable output below the crossover point.
    a 6db/oct slope at 10kHz Xover point means that at 5kHz you still have 25% of the power output.
    I would hope you would realize I am well aware of that!

    In this case we were using a third order 10KHz crossover (18 dB/octave -3dB point at ~10KHz) so it was much sharper than your first order example, but sure, there is certainly some contribution and some effect on the sound even at 5KHz, but the point is that even in a case where one's hearing is fairly impaired while listening to music the addition of higher frequencies was more perceivable than one would have imagined.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    I would have to witness such a spectacle first hand.

    More importantly, how do you like the sound of the 045 in the 1400 Array where it actually matters? At 20 kHz it is, of course, a laser beam, but up to that point it's pretty damn awesome eh?
    As to what a younger person hears, when I was in high school I started building speakers and I remember hearing sine waves at just above 19KHz but I didn't quite hear 20KHz (though it is possible that my speakers at the time were more deficient than my hearing)... today the best I do is about 15KHz... not bad when you consider all of those youthful indiscretions with big JBLs blasting out rock and roll!

    As to the 045Ti, I do think if I had my younger hearing I would insist on the Be version, but as it stands I am actually pretty satisfied with them.


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    My inconclusive and raw hypothesis is it all depends on the efficiency of the speaker as a whole. I've listened to a pair of Meyer Audio X10 and wow talk about dynamics but this speaker doesn't go past 20k and sounded better to me than a B&W Diamond 800 that goes past 20k. My theory is if a speaker has high effieincy and dynamics a UHF tweeter isn't needed

  6. #21
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom1040 View Post
    All I can add is that the addition of a "super tweeter" greatly helped me with my JBL S/2600 speakers. A excerpt from the Tannoy ST50 information:


    The ST50 SuperTweeterTM is designed to provide the extended high frequency response demanded by modern programme material and sources (e.g. SACD / DVDA), which have driven the requirement for loudspeakers with extended frequency bandwidth performance. By allowing the listener to experience a far wider range of bandwidth information of instruments than is currently possible with conventional loudspeakers, the new ST50 SuperTweeterTM from Tannoy completes the musical picture. It not only has the ability to resolve fine detail of high frequency notes but also effectively enhances the listening experience even at lower frequencies. Music contains transient information and rich harmonics beyond the range of human hearing for pure tones. Even bass notes have leading edge transients reaching 30kHz with other instrumentation extending yet further. The leading edge of a note, for instance the initial stick contact with the skin of a drum, is where vital transients occur. Conventional speaker designs with a frequency response upper limit restricted to 20kHz are unable to reproduce this essential detail. The Tannoy SuperTweeterTM however reproduces all these transients, operating between the roll off point of the existing loudspeakers and 54kHz; the SuperTweeterTM will accurately reproduce the leading edge of individual notes. This allows the listener to experience the entire bandwidth information of the recorded instruments, with the result that music information has restored to it the speed, impact and clarity.
    I have heard the Tannoy super tweeters in a couple of applications... they are good. That paragraph however is marketing dept. BS. It may be rooted in facts, but it is still BS.

    Two decades prior to the amazing advent of SACD and DVDA we had glorious analog with mics, preamps, amps, and and analog tape all quite capable of 30KHz or higher... most high quality vinyl playback systems will reproduce these frequencies and back then there were many loudspeaker systems that would and could reproduce these frequencies... limited bandwidth is a rather recent phenomenon created by the limitations of the 44.1KHz sampling rate of red book CD.


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  7. #22
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    Apples and Oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown View Post
    My inconclusive and raw hypothesis is it all depends on the efficiency of the speaker as a whole. I've listened to a pair of Meyer Audio X10 and wow talk about dynamics but this speaker doesn't go past 18k and sounded better to me than a B&W Diamond 800 that goes past 20k. My theory is if a speaker has high effieincy and dynamics a UHF tweeter isn't needed
    That is an entirely different topic... not a worthless topic, but a separate subject entirely.

    I agree that dynamics are very important to a sense of musicality or "realness" but it appears that different listeners have differing requirements or perhaps more or less willingness to tolerate systems with lower dynamics. The Revel Ultima Salon2 is a superior speaker in many ways than the Meyer X-10 or the JBL Everest, yet it can not compete with either of these in terms of dynamics. Apparently for you, and definitely for me, the more dynamic speaker is the more enjoyable one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That is an entirely different topic... not a worthless topic, but a separate subject entirely.

    I agree that dynamics are very important to a sense of musicality or "realness" but it appears that different listeners have differing requirements or perhaps more or less willingness to tolerate systems with lower dynamics. The Revel Ultima Salon2 is a superior speaker in many ways than the Meyer X-10 or the JBL Everest, yet it can not compete with either of these in terms of dynamics. Apparently for you, and definitely for me, the more dynamic speaker is the more enjoyable one.


    Widget
    Ah gotcha!! I guess me playing the guitar and loving live music may skew my view ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I have heard the Tannoy super tweeters in a couple of applications... they are good. That paragraph however is marketing dept. BS. It may be rooted in facts, but it is still BS.

    Two decades prior to the amazing advent of SACD and DVDA we had glorious analog with mics, preamps, amps, and and analog tape all quite capable of 30KHz or higher... most high quality vinyl playback systems will reproduce these frequencies and back then there were many loudspeaker systems that would and could reproduce these frequencies... limited bandwidth is a rather recent phenomenon created by the limitations of the 44.1KHz sampling rate of red book CD.


    Widget
    That may be true. I did not write that. Plus, I suspect that most if not all companies marketing departments produce BS-including JBL. My point was to simply provide an experience that I had with speakers that do not have a UHF tweeter and the difference it made to MY ears. After occuring a sudden reduction in hearing in my left ear about 5 years ago, I bought the Tannoys. I am simply stating I could hear a difference-not that it magically corrected my hearing, but it did help with the HF(and LF).
    I will take my leave of you now.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom1040 View Post
    That may be true. I did not write that. Plus, I suspect that most if not all companies marketing departments produce BS-including JBL. My point was to simply provide an experience that I had with speakers that do not have a UHF tweeter and the difference it made to MY ears. After occuring a sudden reduction in hearing in my left ear about 5 years ago, I bought the Tannoys. I am simply stating I could hear a difference-not that it magically corrected my hearing, but it did help with the HF(and LF).
    I didn't mean to sound like I was damning the messenger.


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    I May be the oldest member on this forum,,,The mid driver (TAD) is good to about 18k,,,But when I add a super tweeter above that,,,i can hear an improvement ,,useing an electronic xover 2 way or 3 way,,,,,,,I dont know why but it sounds better,,,And i know my hearing is not good for my age,,,,
    Vlad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That is an entirely different topic... not a worthless topic, but a separate subject entirely.

    I agree that dynamics are very important to a sense of musicality or "realness" but it appears that different listeners have differing requirements or perhaps more or less willingness to tolerate systems with lower dynamics. The Revel Ultima Salon2 is a superior speaker in many ways than the Meyer X-10 or the JBL Everest, yet it can not compete with either of these in terms of dynamics. Apparently for you, and definitely for me, the more dynamic speaker is the more enjoyable one.


    Widget
    I agree with this statement-almost. I had a grand time with the higher sensitvity S/2600 horn speakers w/Tannoy ST50 driven by a lightly taxed McIntosh MC402 amp-dynamics that seem 'missing' with the Arrays. I could push the S/2600's to pretty high SPL with, according to me and others, great satisfaction. However, as far as I am concerned, the Arrays sound, to me, more like a 'regular' speaker than a horn loaded one-which to my ears, is outstanding. To push the Arrays too hard may cause harm to them, I believe.

    I think the term dynamic may mean different things to different people.
    I will take my leave of you now.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I would hope you would realize I am well aware of that! Widget
    To be honest I saw this thread in diagonal and didn't remember really who posted, yes I'm sure you're aware of that
    18dB/octave is pretty steep, but I wonder how much is still there at 8 or 9k...
    I'm sure that case difference could be heard, I'm just not sure it was because of the extended response.
    My avatar: 4520 loaded with 2225H on E140 frames,
    1x B&C 12PE32 on custom front loaded horn, 2x 2426 on 2370.

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    Lots of interesting comments. If one was to add a supertweeter at like 18k, would that be a good place to start a crossover point?

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    Seriously?

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