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Thread: Frequencies above 20k

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    Frequencies above 20k

    I've been researching all weekend and can't find a definitive answer on this topic. I know we can't hear past 20k, hell some can't past 15k yet you'll see speakers going past 40k. Some say it helps w overall harmonics but I can't see how that helps when we can't hear it. Anyone have more insight?

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    Mind over matter.

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    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    The Japanese market, which is a force in the more expensive audio market, insists on it.
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown View Post
    I've been researching all weekend and can't find a definitive answer on this topic. I know we can't hear past 20k, hell some can't past 15k yet you'll see speakers going past 40k. Some say it helps w overall harmonics but I can't see how that helps when we can't hear it. Anyone have more insight?
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


    Widget

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


    Widget
    Interesting...I may need to have a listen at my friends house and do a simple experiment covering and uncovering the VHF tweeter. The speakers in my house fizzle out at 20k. Thanks for the info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


    Widget
    I assume these preferred systems were behind a curtain and he could neither see nor know that a tweeter was involved.

    If a tweeter is crossed into a system at 10 kHz then it is hopefully adding considerably to the power response. No surprise there.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    I assume these preferred systems were behind a curtain and he could neither see nor know that a tweeter was involved.
    No, I was manually connecting and disconnecting the tweeter without his knowledge.. not double blind and certainly not scientific, but it is an interesting anecdotal data point.


    Widget

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    No, I was manually connecting and disconnecting the tweeter without his knowledge.. not double blind and certainly not scientific, but it is an interesting anecdotal data point.


    Widget
    You have the everest series correct? If memory serves me right don't those have a crossover point of 20k for the UHF? And if so do you get the same effect as the old member does?

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    Interesting topic. My 1400's have an "airy" sound that I attribute somewhat to their extended response. My old ears can't hear much above 10k but I can hear those UHF tweeters very clearly.
    I may be wrong but a transient at say 5k would have a similar rise time of a signal at say 40k. So high frequency transients would be "blunted" with a less extended speaker.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Transients

    If you look at a square wave on an oscilloscope in a perfect world it will have sharp crisp traces creating boxes, if you filter the signal or have wire with less than ideal characteristics the corners will start to round... this is true at all frequencies. Even a very low frequency transient will have very high overtones required to keep the crisp box like response. The exact same thing occurs with musical information with fast transients... a bass drum has remarkably high frequency overtones.


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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown View Post
    You have the everest series correct? If memory serves me right don't those have a crossover point of 20k for the UHF? And if so do you get the same effect as the old member does?
    I have temporarily disconnected the tweeters and I am not sure if I could hear a difference... perhaps playing an analog source through my entirely analog and wideband system I might have, and a younger person likely would hear the difference.


    Widget

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    a younger person likely would hear the difference.Widget
    Or not.
    In.

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    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I have temporarily disconnected the tweeters and I am not sure if I could hear a difference... perhaps playing an analog source through my entirely analog and wideband system I might have, and a younger person likely would hear the difference.


    Widget
    We can sense sub sonic sounds without "hearing" the sound. It should work the same way up high. I have don't have that kind of sense. Or much sense at all, really.
    David F
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidF View Post
    We can sense sub sonic sounds without "hearing" the sound. It should work the same way up high. I have don't have that kind of sense. Or much sense at all, really.
    When my ex-wife got extra shrill, I swear I couldn't hear her, but I got headaches anyway.
    In.

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    All I can add is that the addition of a "super tweeter" greatly helped me with my JBL S/2600 speakers. A excerpt from the Tannoy ST50 information:


    The ST50 SuperTweeterTM is designed to provide the extended high frequency response demanded by modern programme material and sources (e.g. SACD / DVDA), which have driven the requirement for loudspeakers with extended frequency bandwidth performance. By allowing the listener to experience a far wider range of bandwidth information of instruments than is currently possible with conventional loudspeakers, the new ST50 SuperTweeterTM from Tannoy completes the musical picture. It not only has the ability to resolve fine detail of high frequency notes but also effectively enhances the listening experience even at lower frequencies. Music contains transient information and rich harmonics beyond the range of human hearing for pure tones. Even bass notes have leading edge transients reaching 30kHz with other instrumentation extending yet further. The leading edge of a note, for instance the initial stick contact with the skin of a drum, is where vital transients occur. Conventional speaker designs with a frequency response upper limit restricted to 20kHz are unable to reproduce this essential detail. The Tannoy SuperTweeterTM however reproduces all these transients, operating between the roll off point of the existing loudspeakers and 54kHz; the SuperTweeterTM will accurately reproduce the leading edge of individual notes. This allows the listener to experience the entire bandwidth information of the recorded instruments, with the result that music information has restored to it the speed, impact and clarity.
    I will take my leave of you now.

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