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    Frequencies above 20k

    I've been researching all weekend and can't find a definitive answer on this topic. I know we can't hear past 20k, hell some can't past 15k yet you'll see speakers going past 40k. Some say it helps w overall harmonics but I can't see how that helps when we can't hear it. Anyone have more insight?

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    Mind over matter.

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    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    The Japanese market, which is a force in the more expensive audio market, insists on it.
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    My inconclusive and raw hypothesis is it all depends on the efficiency of the speaker as a whole. I've listened to a pair of Meyer Audio X10 and wow talk about dynamics but this speaker doesn't go past 20k and sounded better to me than a B&W Diamond 800 that goes past 20k. My theory is if a speaker has high effieincy and dynamics a UHF tweeter isn't needed

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Apples and Oranges

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown View Post
    My inconclusive and raw hypothesis is it all depends on the efficiency of the speaker as a whole. I've listened to a pair of Meyer Audio X10 and wow talk about dynamics but this speaker doesn't go past 18k and sounded better to me than a B&W Diamond 800 that goes past 20k. My theory is if a speaker has high effieincy and dynamics a UHF tweeter isn't needed
    That is an entirely different topic... not a worthless topic, but a separate subject entirely.

    I agree that dynamics are very important to a sense of musicality or "realness" but it appears that different listeners have differing requirements or perhaps more or less willingness to tolerate systems with lower dynamics. The Revel Ultima Salon2 is a superior speaker in many ways than the Meyer X-10 or the JBL Everest, yet it can not compete with either of these in terms of dynamics. Apparently for you, and definitely for me, the more dynamic speaker is the more enjoyable one.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That is an entirely different topic... not a worthless topic, but a separate subject entirely.

    I agree that dynamics are very important to a sense of musicality or "realness" but it appears that different listeners have differing requirements or perhaps more or less willingness to tolerate systems with lower dynamics. The Revel Ultima Salon2 is a superior speaker in many ways than the Meyer X-10 or the JBL Everest, yet it can not compete with either of these in terms of dynamics. Apparently for you, and definitely for me, the more dynamic speaker is the more enjoyable one.


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    Ah gotcha!! I guess me playing the guitar and loving live music may skew my view ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That is an entirely different topic... not a worthless topic, but a separate subject entirely.

    I agree that dynamics are very important to a sense of musicality or "realness" but it appears that different listeners have differing requirements or perhaps more or less willingness to tolerate systems with lower dynamics. The Revel Ultima Salon2 is a superior speaker in many ways than the Meyer X-10 or the JBL Everest, yet it can not compete with either of these in terms of dynamics. Apparently for you, and definitely for me, the more dynamic speaker is the more enjoyable one.


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    I agree with this statement-almost. I had a grand time with the higher sensitvity S/2600 horn speakers w/Tannoy ST50 driven by a lightly taxed McIntosh MC402 amp-dynamics that seem 'missing' with the Arrays. I could push the S/2600's to pretty high SPL with, according to me and others, great satisfaction. However, as far as I am concerned, the Arrays sound, to me, more like a 'regular' speaker than a horn loaded one-which to my ears, is outstanding. To push the Arrays too hard may cause harm to them, I believe.

    I think the term dynamic may mean different things to different people.
    I will take my leave of you now.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown View Post
    I've been researching all weekend and can't find a definitive answer on this topic. I know we can't hear past 20k, hell some can't past 15k yet you'll see speakers going past 40k. Some say it helps w overall harmonics but I can't see how that helps when we can't hear it. Anyone have more insight?
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


    Widget
    Interesting...I may need to have a listen at my friends house and do a simple experiment covering and uncovering the VHF tweeter. The speakers in my house fizzle out at 20k. Thanks for the info

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


    Widget
    I assume these preferred systems were behind a curtain and he could neither see nor know that a tweeter was involved.

    If a tweeter is crossed into a system at 10 kHz then it is hopefully adding considerably to the power response. No surprise there.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    I assume these preferred systems were behind a curtain and he could neither see nor know that a tweeter was involved.
    No, I was manually connecting and disconnecting the tweeter without his knowledge.. not double blind and certainly not scientific, but it is an interesting anecdotal data point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    No, I was manually connecting and disconnecting the tweeter without his knowledge.. not double blind and certainly not scientific, but it is an interesting anecdotal data point.


    Widget
    You have the everest series correct? If memory serves me right don't those have a crossover point of 20k for the UHF? And if so do you get the same effect as the old member does?

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    Interesting topic. My 1400's have an "airy" sound that I attribute somewhat to their extended response. My old ears can't hear much above 10k but I can hear those UHF tweeters very clearly.
    I may be wrong but a transient at say 5k would have a similar rise time of a signal at say 40k. So high frequency transients would be "blunted" with a less extended speaker.

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundown View Post
    You have the everest series correct? If memory serves me right don't those have a crossover point of 20k for the UHF? And if so do you get the same effect as the old member does?
    I have temporarily disconnected the tweeters and I am not sure if I could hear a difference... perhaps playing an analog source through my entirely analog and wideband system I might have, and a younger person likely would hear the difference.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."


    Widget
    A crossover point doesn't mean that below this point there's no output, it's a roll-off, depending on the slope you could have still very noticeable output below the crossover point.
    a 6db/oct slope at 10kHz Xover point means that at 5kHz you still have 25% of the power output.
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