Im going to start the front baffle for my 4412 protect and want to mimic the vertical alignment of the 4410.
Can one of the owners of the 4410, with the vertical alignment, give me the measurements of the midrange and tweeter from the top of the cab and from the side of the cab--id like to get the original alignment close in my new cab.
Also the same for the lpad/port plate would be great.
Thanks in advance.
Measured at centers of drivers.Originally Posted by ltngstruckfirst
Mid: 8.75" from cabinet top; 6.25" from cabinet left side.
Tweeter: 3.25" from top of cabinet; 6.375" from cabinet left side.
Port / Lpad assy. : 15/16" cab top to assy. top edge; 1 1/4" cab right side to assy. right edge.
This is the 4410 R cabinet... mirror image the "L" cabinet.
Measured with Luftkin L725SCT tape measure. Someone might be able to dial it a bit closer.
-de-
Thats closer than I was going to get w/o your measurements--I was about to scale a picture...lol
Im going to lay them out next week.
Also, ever since your reply to my thread regarding volume/alignment, my 4412s have been in the vertical position--there is some weirdness in the top end, but they still sound fantastic, and the imaging is 1M times better.
Don't understand.. Do you mean that you have the stock configured 4412's rotated by 90 degrees with the mid & tweeter above the woofer but not one above the other?
Weirdness? What I found to be weirdness was that no matter where I placed mine in whatever geometric positioning, at whatever distance from what shold have been a good listening position, and with all sorts of experiments with room treatments... crappy imaging.
All of the scenarios described were set up using musical selections I am very familiar with and through equipment I am very familiar with, in a configuration I am very familiar with. I tried.
I had a pair of 4310WX from 1976 until 2001 when I gave them to a friend who was building his first home studio. Even with those oldies I could always find at least one sweet spot where everything sounded ok, typically quite close to in the monitors.
I guess the highest priority design consideration implimented in the 4412's must be something like vocal range smoothness or such. ???
It would be very interesting to have detailed test results which compared the different alignments as to cabinet - driver -driver interaction, cancellation effects, crossover coloration, and the "whole encilada" of sonic small and large effects produced by said physical positioning. Without this my understanding of these imaging issues remains a mystery and curiosity.
BTW, how does the 128H-1 fit in your upgraded enclosures? From the start I've called my re-configuration "Project Shoehorn".
In addition to the 1/8" woofer flange clearance at the bottom, the midrange driver sits quite closer to the woofer than previously.
I have a pair of 4412A and for years they've functioned in a vertical position for ease of integrating them into the room where they do their job. I'm still running the Left on the left and the Right on the right which (if you go by JBLs information) puts the tweeters to the inside and on the top). I think any imaging problems can be traced to tweeter position. JBL always shows these positioned horizontally with tweeters to the outside, which makes perfectly good sense if the intention is to provide a wider soundstage in a near-field application where the boxes by necessity must be close together. Spread further apart they might benefit from reversing this arrangement, placing the tweeters on the outside to prevent a split vocalist or any hole in the center.
I don't see any reason why simply rotating them 90-degrees to a vertical orientation should cause a problem. That still provides for a small adjustment in tweeter placement. Tweeters on the same horizontal axis with the mids shouldn't really cause an issue. And none of the drivers change their dispersion when rotated 90-degrees. On the other hand the tight driver placement should help with time alignment and provide a cohesive sound stage. Like any speaker, position can be critical depending on the listener's distance from the speakers, the "golden triangle", and certainly toe-in. If you're too close to these, or if they're spread too far apart, certainly the soundstage will get a bit wonky.
". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers
I could try to blame it all on my current, very nearfield listening geometrics - a 7' wide x 7.5' deep x 6.5' high Class A RV former "master bedroom" - ha ha.
BUT... I once had the stock as stink 4410's in an 8' cabover camper. Soundstage was not as deep as in larger rooms, but the appearent image was wide and focused, extending horizonally far beyond the speakers' real physical locations. I could have made good use of a "stereo blend" control such as those provided in some amplifiers of the proto-stereo / ping-pong / instruments left, vocals right period [ bletch ! ] of hifi evolution there. I should DIY one, should be simple and not too spendy to build.
Those Pro JBL's could be driven in that small space to seriously loud, very punchy yet clean spl's with my 20W rms / ch. Advent 300 receiver. Less mass of air to have to create sonic pressure ridges in...
With the vertical driver alignment scheme in these small "playback booths", I can create a Sweet spot from Hell easily with just a small smattering of acoustical treatment materials.
To be continued...
Yup I rotated them 90deg and never looked back!
The imaging is so much better it was shocking.
I have the HF drivers to the outside--tried with them on the inside and didn't like it as much.
I would describe the "weirdness" kind of like the drivers fighting with each other and the music kind of flutters as the demand on the driver changes?I don't see any reason why simply rotating them 90-degrees to a vertical orientation should cause a problem. That still provides for a small adjustment in tweeter placement. Tweeters on the same horizontal axis with the mids shouldn't really cause an issue. And none of the drivers change their dispersion when rotated 90-degrees. On the other hand the tight driver placement should help with time alignment and provide a cohesive sound stage. Like any speaker, position can be critical depending on the listener's distance from the speakers, the "golden triangle", and certainly toe-in. If you're too close to these, or if they're spread too far apart, certainly the soundstage will get a bit wonky.
Its ever so slight, but I remember noticing it the second I rotated them to the vertical position.
Is it possible the drivers like being vertically aligned?
I certainly don't know yet, but when I get my new enclosures completed and the drivers loaded--if the 128H-1 fits--I will find out.
The JBL literature on the 4412 shows a dip or a notch in off axis frequency response between 3khz and 5khz.
Maybe this is what I'm hearing/heard?I
did some critical listening last night and didn't notice it as much, but Ive tweaked and moved them many times since.
Whatever I hear/heard, the imaging in the new position more than makes up for it.
Unfortunately the golden ratio doesn't work in my room.
My listening position is from corner to corner and if I get the speakers too far apart it breaks up the soundstage
I do however have a fair amount of room treatment and it helps.
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