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Thread: Is newer better : 4430 vs 1400 Array

  1. #31
    Senior Member JuniorJBL's Avatar
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    I am currently running the 14H-3's for my arrays in a Citation 7.4 cab with the SAM1HF's sitting on top and the cced XO. They have really nice extension down low! I do not feel the need for subs with these.
    Always fun learning more.......

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I personally couldn't live with the K2-S9800 or S9900 without a sub, but that is my choice.
    Just use larger volumes, the 1500AL in a 5 cu ft matches the bandwidth of the LE14 in the 4 cu ft.

    It would seem that there is just no getting around not using a 4430-sized box with any fifteen to get that "proper" bottom end.

  3. #33
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    Just use larger volumes, the 1500AL in a 5 cu ft matches the bandwidth of the LE14 in the 4 cu ft.

    It would seem that there is just no getting around not using a 4430-sized box with any fifteen to get that "proper" bottom end.
    That's fine for those DIYers among us... but not everyone can pull that off. Not to mention most DIYers can't do everything else right when building their own project or clone either. Box building and tuning are only the tip of the iceberg.


    Widget

  4. #34
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    I don't mind a big spoon of nostalgia from time to time. In fact, it can be quite tasty, but I don't let that get in the way of simple facts.

    I love my 1989 Chrysler's TC by Maserati: Italian leather everywhere, real chrome and stainless steel all over the place, unique two-seater design with hard top and soft top in the same vehicle, Fondmetal alloys, turbo, dual eight-way power seats, etc. It's a great, unique vehicle with a lot of charm. Yet I know it's less of a car by almost every important measure than my 2012 Hyundai Elantra Touring. From safety, to economy, to technology, to quality control, to cost of ownership, to joy in driving, the Hyundai kills the TC. So while I love the TC, I have no illusions about which is the better vehicle.

    Yes, I've still got my original L100s, plus another pair, L250s, XPL200As, L7s, 4430s, S/2600s (...keep going...), but the simple reality is the newer stuff I have has it all over those treasured units, and they can only be appreciated for what they represent for the time they were designed and manufactured. All my SVAs are gone, and hopefully the delightful 240Tis will follow, but the choice if I had to make it is quite simple. The Performance Series, the Synthesis® One Array, and the K2 S9900s would stay, and everything else would go. Nostalgia be dashed, at the end of a long day, it's the speakers that please me the most that matter, and they all are relatively recent.
    In.

  5. #35
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    That's all really neato and stuff but the simple fact is, I'd rather pay ten grand for the Everest II components and build a pair of 4435-type boxes to put them in than pay sixty grand for some art. I am interested in the components and the music, not art. If I can't buy the Everest II components for ten grand then I'm going to stick with the previous gear.

    There is no way in hell on earth that I'm going to be replacing something like an L300 with 99% of the third-world JUNK JBL peddles today. Hell, I wouldn't even replace an L300 with a K2-S9900; I'll be real blunt, the box is too small for the kind of low frequency response I personally prefer and the horn isn't vertical. Now why the **** would I spend $40 grand on something like that? Just sell me the components for six grand and I'll do with them what I wish.

    The following are arguably some of today's replacements for a 4430:
    S4700
    S4800
    4338
    4365
    K2-S9900

    If one doesn't have the bags of gold to replace then perhaps doing the most with what one has would be the better bet. Replace the diaphragms with Be diaphragms when and if they become available, worst case use aquaplased aluminums or titaniums. CC the networks and tweak them to personal taste. Retune the stock 4430 box 4 to 6 Hz down to get rid of that damn bump at 34 Hz. Or consider buying some SAM1HF's and putting them with the 2235H's.

    There are three reasons I can think of to scale down to the LE14H-3 from the 2235H:
    1. Smaller box requirement.
    2. No foam surround.
    3. Personal preference for the sound signature of the less efficient LE14H-3.

    They are capable of the exact same low frequency bandwidth, the 2235H is merely 4 dB more efficient and can handle a bit more excursion.

  6. #36
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I am interested in the components and the music, not art.
    Too bad about that. It was fun while it lasted.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Too bad about that. It was fun while it lasted.
    Yep. I guess everything has a lifespan.

    Back in the day we didn't want to buy a Paragon, we wanted LE15A's, 375's, and 075's and JBL bent over backwards to make it all happen.

    It really was fun!



    Today you order an LE14H-3 and it shows up in a beat to hell brown paper bag ten months later.

    I was going to recone a few more 121H's in the next few weeks for subwoofer duty and went to order the kits and they are NLA. Yet another one bites the dust.

    Whatever...

  8. #38
    Super Moderator jblnut's Avatar
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    Hey if you're gonna bring Maserati into this, at least include something like the Bi-Turbo for heaven's sake (or a Bora or Merak) .

    I get your point though, and everyone else's here (even though it does nothing to diminish my continuing enjoyment of my 250Ti's). For years all we could do was talk about the older models and although it was enjoyable, we eventually covered every possible topic on all the old speakers. But recently now JBL has begun to re-embrace the US market with a whole slew of new models, that are unfortunately quite beyond the budget of all but the most well heeled audio enthusiasts. I do enjoy hearing about those of you who have made the leap, and I hope to one day do the same. But it's going to have to be quite a deal (and perhaps quite some time) before that will be possible.

    I would be quite happy to build a 5.1 system around 4430's some day...and I also hope that eventually the 250's might be surpassed with something newer. We'll see if the stars and planets align to make that happen. Something tells me with 2 boys hitting college in the next 6-8 years it may not.

    My main goal for the next few years is to actually end up in a room somewhere that actually *has* 1400's or K2's or the mighty Everest so I can hear for myself what the fuss is all about.

    jblnut

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblnut View Post
    Something tells me with 2 boys hitting college in the next 6-8 years it may not.
    Yep. I have to seriously start throttling this back too.
    Quote Originally Posted by jblnut View Post
    My main goal for the next few years is to actually end up in a room somewhere that actually *has* 1400's or K2's or the mighty Everest so I can hear for myself what the fuss is all about.
    I think Harman might still consider New York City a fairly important cosmopolitan area and a Dealer should have a pair there? I know it is in the United States but it still does have a fairly impressive headcount so perhaps a Dealer still exists there.

  10. #40
    Senior Member SEAWOLF97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    That's all really neato and stuff but the simple fact is, I'd rather pay ten grand for the Everest II components and build a pair of 4435-type boxes to put them in than pay sixty grand for some art. I am interested in the components and the music, not art. If I can't buy the Everest II components for ten grand then I'm going to stick with the previous gear.

    There is no way in hell on earth that I'm going to be replacing something like an L300 with 99% of the third-world JUNK JBL peddles today. Hell, I wouldn't even replace an L300 with a K2-S9900; I'll be real blunt, the box is too small for the kind of low frequency response I personally prefer and the horn isn't vertical. Now why the **** would I spend $40 grand on something like that? Just sell me the components for six grand and I'll do with them what I wish.
    If one doesn't have the bags of gold to replace then perhaps doing the most with what one has would be the better bet..
    I guess your ideas not not ostentatious enough to be accepted by our nouveau riche ..too practical , not enough flash.
    IF YOU CAN'T FIX IT WITH A HAMMER, YOU'VE GOT AN ELECTRICAL PROBLEM

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97 View Post
    I guess your ideas not not ostentatious enough to be accepted by our nouveau riche ..too practical , not enough flash.
    Or not enough time.

    I guess if you make $200 an hour it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to spend your time cutting wood in your garage to make your latest pair of DIY's. In that case I can see spending $60k on loudspeakers that are definitely today's Hartsfield in every sense of the word, at least while they were being made in Northridge, I personally have zero interest in them now.

    They're just another import at this point and we need to be EXPORTING. HELLO!?



    The "worry free" aspect can also be quite compelling as per the OP's friends.

  12. #42
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    Why back when...

    Okay, 4313B, rant all you want; you've earned it. I do respect your lament. But the OP asked about old vs. new, not about custom-built vs. stock, or $1,000 used vs. $40,000 new--just 4430 and 1400 Array. Obviously, like most threads, it's gone beyond that now.

    I don't want to do all that tinkering that many here like to do. Sure, dorking around with some drivers and active crossovers is fun, and fixing a marred cabinet is enjoyable, but I have zero interest in constructing boxes, specing drivers, building crossovers, etc. What's enjoyable and fulfilling to some is tedious and pointless to me.

    I have other things to do with my life, including enjoying music, which I enjoy much, much, much more than the thought of building my own second-rate loudspeaker, which would leave me frustrated and unhappy. Why not just enjoy music a lot sooner with products designed by respected professionals with a long history of innovation and product enhancement? I can do that with greater pleasure from a pair of Timbers-Morro-Ashcraft K2 S9900s (or 1400 Arrays) than 4430s and certainly more than some disappointment that I built, wasting thousands of dollars of valuable parts in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    That's fine for those DIYers among us... but not everyone can pull that off. Not to mention most DIYers can't do everything else right when building their own project or clone either. Box building and tuning are only the tip of the iceberg.
    Widget's exactly right, or as Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

    I could fuss and fret over why I can or can't get the parts or why I don't have the time, interest, or shop equipment to build a better loudspeaker than the the K2, or I could just find a way to buy it and spend the next 20 years listening to music.

    ------------------------------------------- Off Topic-------------------------------------------

    Ah, I see a quote from someone whose posts I cannot read unless quoted. I was homeless when I graduated from high school, living in my 1964 Plymouth Belvedere station wagon. You know what Ohio winters can be like some years. To be able to rise above this, I worked and went to high school and college. I invested tens of thousands of dollars in my own education, worked my way up from the bottom to the top, eventually saved a bankrupt company, provided 80 people with good paying jobs with full, free benefits, and provided needed help and services to over a million youths and their families (so far). It's not like I'm 20 or 30 or 40 or even 50 years old. My kids are grown, through college, and own their own houses (except for my autistic son, of course). I'm where I am because I worked hard and planned to be here, and there were long decades of L100s only, but now with careful planning and shrewd deal making I can buy what I cannot (or will not) make. No, I don't make $200/hr or even $100/hr, but I earn every dollar I receive. No one gave me anything to make me noveau riche.

    This approach is at least as practical to get to the desired result of enjoying music, and believe me there was very little flash and a lot of hard work involved.
    In.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblnut View Post
    Hey if you're gonna bring Maserati into this, at least include something like the Bi-Turbo for heaven's sake (or a Bora or Merak) .

    I get your point though, and everyone else's here (even though it does nothing to diminish my continuing enjoyment of my 250Ti's). For years all we could do was talk about the older models and although it was enjoyable, we eventually covered every possible topic on all the old speakers. But recently now JBL has begun to re-embrace the US market with a whole slew of new models, that are unfortunately quite beyond the budget of all but the most well heeled audio enthusiasts. I do enjoy hearing about those of you who have made the leap, and I hope to one day do the same. But it's going to have to be quite a deal (and perhaps quite some time) before that will be possible.

    I would be quite happy to build a 5.1 system around 4430's some day...and I also hope that eventually the 250's might be surpassed with something newer. We'll see if the stars and planets align to make that happen. Something tells me with 2 boys hitting college in the next 6-8 years it may not.

    My main goal for the next few years is to actually end up in a room somewhere that actually *has* 1400's or K2's or the mighty Everest so I can hear for myself what the fuss is all about.

    jblnut
    Hey, my TC cost $4,000 when it was 14 years old. What can I say? I'd love a $120,000+ Gran Sport, but the TCO is way too high. (Starting with the down payment...)

    Anytime you're in SoCal you can stop by for an audition and a ride in the TC.
    In.

  14. #44
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    I completely empathize.

    Obviously, like most threads, it's gone beyond that now.
    Well... yeah... they do go off here and there don't they.

    The thread could have been put to bed with a single post - "Buy the 1400 Arrays and call it done." - end of thread.




    There are alot of tinkerers out there. I will admit being rather perplexed when Greg started modifying his brand new Everest II's. Seriously, I was a bit perplexed. I guess some people just have it to do.

    Would you believe that I'm thinking about taking my new Tannoy's apart and biasing the networks?

    If I had some 1400 Arrays I'd be taking them puppies apart and biasing those networks. That particular system is definitely worth the effort.

  15. #45
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    I will admit being rather perplexed when Greg started modifying his brand new Everest II's. Seriously, I was a bit perplexed.
    What what what?! What mods? Inquiring minds want to know!!

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