Wrong again. The LFE input and LF (speaker input) are completely different things. The LFE gain never controls anything other than the LFE input.Originally Posted by jblsound
Wrong again. The LFE input and LF (speaker input) are completely different things. The LFE gain never controls anything other than the LFE input.
According to the manual you are wrong! When the coax is supplying both the normal bass & LFE, the LFE control is effecting both.
The coax input is separate from the speaker level input. So If one uses the PS full range & connects the coax, then, YES, they are separate.
This is the only way it can be with all the LF running through the coax.
This is a copy/paste from the manual:
If you are using the third or fourth configurations, where the main speakers are configured as “Small” and all bass information is being sent to the LFE inputs of the PS1400s, the LFE Level control will operate on all low- frequency information, and not just for the .1 channel effects.
Last edited by jblsound; 12-13-2012 at 05:00 AM. Reason: change sentence.
Living in the Land of the Sun
For some reason the edit function did not work on the post above. Kept going back to the original post.
Anyway, if all the LF are being sent through the coax/LFE input then the LFE control is the only control in the bass circuit.
And the LF control then sees nothing. You still end up with the same output, both the normal LF & LFE channel.
Living in the Land of the Sun
I'm getting confused again!
There are two knobs, the LF level which adds up to +/- 5db in Normal mode, doesn't work on the Sub/LEF input:
This control only affects all
information being received by
the speaker-level input.
The LFE knob only regulates the input voltage since all line levels are not the same (which could work to turn up the volume):
LFE Level Control – This
control only affects the signal
sent to the LFE input. Adjust
the LFE level by starting with
the level controls on both
PS1400 modules in the
Minimum position. With 5.1, 6.1
or 7.1 source material playing,
advance the LFE Level controls
on both PS1400s slowly until
the desired amount of effects
channel is present. The normal
position for this control is full
clockwise, with LFE adjustments
being made via the level
adjustments on your processor.
We have provided this control
because the LFE output level of
AV receivers and processors
can vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer.
Ti also chimed in and clarified that selectable does not mean variable. There is no variable XO control on the PS1400, you either get 130hz in normal mode, or you have an external XO. You can only turn up the loudness.
EDIT: You can only turn up/down the loudness when the speaker level input are used using the LF Level, you can only turn down the loudness if the line level signal is too high at the LFE Level, you can't amp it over it's original signal.
That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in.I'm getting confused again!
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.
Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.
BTW, I've noticed that the later revision of the PS1400 amp I have has a auto-on sensing circuit that is actually worth using. Hardly ever shuts off at the wrong time and is much more sensitive so it turns on quicker, and silently.
I thought we were seeing eye to eye, so far as I understood what was being said..That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in.
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.
Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.
What would happen if the speaker jacks were used and the sub set to Separate? The electronic XO of 130hz would be disabled, the PT800 would still get it's 130hz from the passive. The LF Level would still work to turn up the loudness (db). The Sub itself would need an external XO to regulate it's top frequency since the XO was disabled, or it would play up to 300hz. The LFE from the AV could override the signal played including the PT800, if for example you had it set to small speakers since it is regulating the signal in the preamp before the speaker jack out and the line out.
But without the AV in use the PS1400 would run up to 300hz, the PT800 cannot go lower than 130hz imposed by the passive.
Sound right?
EDIT: Unless the AV can send one signal to the speaker out, and another to the sub out... I dunno, I'm still old school..
That's more or less what I was trying to describe previously. With the switch set to "Separate", the sub is receiving whatever be being input via speakers jacks. However it has a 300Hz roll-off (filter). So on paper the sub and PT800 are duplicating any sounds between 130 and 300Hz. I think the preferable situation would be to power the PT800 separately and use the AVR crossover to direct bass to the LFE channel. However it does offer options which are not available in traditional sub setups. AND, it offers separate gain controls in the sub for the 2 inputs. On the PS1400, the LFE control offers only attenuation but the LF control offers -2 to +5 db control.I thought we were seeing eye to eye, so far as I understood what was being said..
What would happen if the speaker jacks were used and the sub set to Separate? The electronic XO of 130hz would be disabled, the PT800 would still get it's 130hz from the passive. The LF Level would still work to turn up the loudness (db). The Sub itself would need an external XO to regulate it's top frequency since the XO was disabled, or it would play up to 300hz. The LFE from the AV could override the signal played including the PT800, if for example you had it set to small speakers since it is regulating the signal in the preamp before the speaker jack out and the line out.
But without the AV in use the PS1400 would run up to 300hz, the PT800 cannot go lower than 130hz imposed by the passive.
Sound right?
Well the LFE gain is not really a gain, the amp does not amp a line level signal, it can only give you 100% of it, or less..That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in.
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.
Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.
The LF gain should still work since the amp can/does amp the speaker level input, if present. But up to what frequency.. that is determined by the signal that the AV sets at that point, again, the AV could override all frequencies to the speaker jacks and the line out.
Didn't mean to talk over you
it might be just as easy to bi-amp the system and use similar amps to power both the PS1400 and the PT800. The thing I kinda saw with using the 240's as enclosures for the PS1400 is that the bass would sometimes be boomy. I think this is because being a small enclosure the bass in the PS1400 never get's to be too much really, so it's easier to mate with the PT800. 4313B said that he would loose the PS amp, and I think this might be partly why, integration.
I'm reading the Manual as I write this and have had this manual since '06 when I bought the PT800.That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in.
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.
Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.
In your above statements you are both right and wrong! Compared to what is stated in the last paragraph. HAVE YOU EVER READ IT?
You are right in that the two controls are separate; LF Control is for the speaker level binding posts circuit.
And the LFE Control is for the effects channel, coax input.
BUT when ONLY THE LFE input is used, ALL the bass output is going to the LFE input. So ALL the LF info is controlled by the LFE Control. NONE of the signal can be controlled by the LF Control, because there are NO speaker wires connected to the speaker binding posts. Which is what you would have IF you used configurations 3 or 4, in the manual.
Which is stated in the last paragraph. What is it about that statement do you not understand?
Living in the Land of the Sun
Why so angry?
I thought we were stipulating on what would happen if both Speaker level and LFE were connected. Would the LF control still work? Yes, it would amp the speaker jack signal. Would the AV still control how high the sub played (up to 300hz)? Yes.
If in Normal mode the signal sent to the sub via the Sub/LFE would be crossed-over electrically at 130hz.
If in Separated mode the Sub/LFE signal would be controlled by the AV or else would play up to it's 300hz rolloff.
In any mode when the speaker jacks are used to passive XO would keep the PT800 at above 130hz.
To reiterate my statement, there is no variable control (XO) on the PS1400, you have 130hz in
Normal, or you have 300hz rolloff in Separated, or controlled by the AV. The LFE dial only allows you to (as rdgrimes said), attenuate the low voltage signal, up to 100%.
I think you just said that, so i'm not sure where the argument is.
It seems there is misunderstanding about what is being said, less about what is going on?
I'm not angry. We were talking about what the LF and LFE Controls do and don't do. And I saw the configs 3 & 4 where the LFE Control is controlling both. so I thought I would mention that fact.
But most people would (I assume) connect both the speaker line in and the coax. So you end up with a full range tower with the added LFE channel too.
In which the LF controls the full range signal and the LFE controls the .1 channel.
I was stating that IF someone were to ONLY connect the subs via coax, as in config 3 & 4, then ALL the bass frequencies are running through the coax, thus only the LFE Control is in use. As its stated in the last paragraph of that section.
I would think the only reason someone would want to connect the subs like that is if they had to place the subs in corners, or elsewhere. Due to height restrictions or maybe not enough bass from the main L/R locations. Or some other odd situation.
For 8 years I've had my L212s and/or PT800s mounted to my diy sub1500s, during which time I've had the speaker level and coax connected to my subs, just as if I were using the PS1400.
Until where I'm living now. After two months of moving the towers around to find the right locations for soundstage, I decided to place the subs, stacked, on the system's centerline, dropping the 3-ways down about 9", using the original L212 bases.
And in this room it improves the soundstage, something that was not a problem before. Its All about the room. Damn concrete construction!
So there is a situation in which I needed to separate the subs from the mains to improve the overall sound.
Living in the Land of the Sun
I'm confused by this statement. If by full range you mean Speaker connection, then yes, the LF controls the amp's gain in either mode Normal or Separated. If you mean the LFE controls the .1 channel, I think this only works in Separated mode, whether there is a speaker connection or not since in Normal mode the coax connection will be set at 130hz by the electronic XO in the PS1400. Turning down the LFE knob in this mode could defeat the amp's gain, which I don't know, but doubt it would work that way.
I think we understand that only the LFE knob will work when in Separated mode, line in (Sub/LFE in) only. But when you say all the bass frequencies, you mean all that the AV is giving it up to the PS1400's maximum of 300hz.?
As a 2 channel user, I don't know why either. My guess is that someone may want to run in 5.1 or 7.1, and at other times stereo only mode? So then you just use the switch on the PS1400 to make it run a a full range speaker again without having to reset the AV.
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