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Thread: Big Loud Party Speakers

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    Big Loud Party Speakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    That alone is reason enough to go that route. I agree that the horizontal pair of 15"ers is very macho looking....

    Having heard both a number of times in different rooms, I'd suggest the 4355s have more punch and will play stupid loud extremely well. The 4345s have a bit more nuance and detail.

    Both systems are big and bold and will certainly impress... I do prefer the newer designs as tonal accuracy and imaging are important to me, but for the cost of a pair of 43XX clones or even fine vintage originals, it is hard to go wrong.


    Widget

    I really value this advice.

    I too am looking into building 2 pairs of 4355 or 4350,s for a loft style party space

    Having used Urei 813B,s for a while I really seem to be drawn to these type of JBL enclosures.. sure they're big, but for big rooms they seem to really hold their own. Solid.

    They are beautifully simple and cost effective to build.. and with veneers they can get very nice

    I keep going over options for drivers, amplification, processing,,, its fun to be inspired by all the designs and the sound of JBL

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    Senior Member richluvsound's Avatar
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    Hi Charles ,

    I think you could do a lot better with something newer for this application. Bare in mind , the 43XX were designed for studios -treated and specifically designed spaces.

    Although , at one time , I did have 4345 and 4435 running in my painting studio . The sound was very good ,but for the same money I could have bought something that would have out performed it .


    Rich

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    Im all EARS shoot, what new system would you suggest. One caveat, I would love for it to be sourced from Canada and within a 1000km radius.. drivers would maybe be manufactured elsewhere..

    The aim of the project is studio sound.. no mp3, all uncompressed files, room will be treated Im told.. would like to go with walnut veneer I am old school and like walnut as you will see from my hand crafted attached pic in solid walnut/maple

    I agree that new can be good.. I also know that some of the magic is lost in todays systems and the passion that "older" JBL can inspire in ppl all over the world.

    We are auditioning different local systems but I havent heard what Im looking for yet, and when we do the price is ridiculous, took a professional cabinet course to get the price down and build it myself. Every time I see the incredible DIY work here it inspires me to dream of a different era where speakers were big, bold and music was too :P

    I have a pair of 813,s and there are strengths and weaknesses in the design. My room is large enough for these speakers, but I barely push them. This will be a more demanding environment so we may have to go with more powerful drivers.. and add independent subs & the extra 12" as with the 4355

    The plan is to build something scalable, as well as a demo system to try different approaches and drivers. Project wont allow for horn loaded for size and looks.. Dont have the money to pay for an entire system off the bat..

    going with two stacks first:

    First is the sub woofers for the system. Going wit a popular design and 2226 drivers that I have already..
    http://mainkas.tripod.com/page/audio...ngen_sub2r.htm

    for the tops it will be very similar to Lasse's project using my 813 donor cabs for testing, 2395 with BMS 4590 (or 2397 wood variant & TAD$$) 2405 or ET703.. BSS Soundweb London processing.. if needed a separate 12" driver in its own box can be added. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...560-4355-clone

    There will also be the booth monitors with dual 12" drivers and an A290 style wood horn.

    Tweeter array perhaps wonder how you guys feel about that LOL

    Amps will be refurbished Crowns, macrotech 3600 and ps-200,s & D75 as well as some Bryston 4b,s

    Quote Originally Posted by richluvsound View Post
    Hi Charles ,

    I think you could do a lot better with something newer for this application. Bare in mind , the 43XX were designed for studios -treated and specifically designed spaces.

    Although , at one time , I did have 4345 and 4435 running in my painting studio . The sound was very good ,but for the same money I could have bought something that would have out performed it .


    Rich

  4. #4
    Senior Member richluvsound's Avatar
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    Hi Charles,

    sounds like an interesting project ... would be very useful if we had a loose budget . Tons of members within that radius with and equal amount of knowledge and ideas .

    Rich

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    I really dont want to start hacking Mesudman`s thread to discuss more of these off topic plans so I`ll try to be brief and to stay on topic with the 4355 clone options.. If the moderators or Mesudman feels like this is too much off topic, I will make another thread once construction commences or feel free to move this post

    * I feel this thread is a good indication that others are interested too in building these bigger older systems.

    The initial budget is very tight, we want to start making money with the space to finance upgrades.. We also need that demo system to try out different options and iron out details before commiting to build the 4way or 5way stacks. Once finalised on design and driver/amp/processing choices.. The four stack system with the additional two booth monitors and all the processing, wiring and cabinet manufacturing/sourcing, drivers, amps.. the maximum is 50,000 CAD/USD.

    The first system will be my pair of Urei 813B with two subs using the 2226, pricing out materials tomorrow at my friends CNC shop for subs. Right now the Urei`s are powered by two Bryston 4B,s in bridged mono. Original Urei time align networks.. the subs will be powered with second hand crown amplifiers, and we will have to find a way to integrate them into the Urei setup.. We have a lot of Crown amps around, we will probably try using something we have first.. One of the lead repair techs at Soundcraft Canada (JBL,s Canadian dist.) is good friends with my partner, and he takes great pride in restoring our amps as well as giving us advice..

    The upgrades will take place over time. I will be testing locally sourced Transparence 15'' drivers in the 813 enclosure first before I commit to buy anything, then try some refurbished JBL drivers we have.. If the TR drivers are more power hungry they will be Macrotech driven for the midbass.

    First thing we will source will be a set of 2405 and used/refurbished D75A, and borrow a set of the 2395 and BMS4590 from a friend for testing. We will try the PS-200 on the 2395/BMS4590.

    I am manufacturing at my own cost a set of A290 horns and double 12'' drivers for the booth at a later date, but first will be the set of 2397 horns - from solid walnut at my friend`s cnc shop. The brass throat adapters will be manufactured by my friend`s cnc metal shop. This is something I always wanted to do, and one of the reasons I took my cabinet makers course.

    We will be borrowing/demoing a Soundweb London from Soundcraft for testing and dialing in the 4way system.. we may add the 12'' enclosure to go 5way.. or pair up the 2397 with the 2395?? This I have never seen done. I have seen double 2395 on a stack, both powered by BMS 4590.. we will try everything!


    Quote Originally Posted by richluvsound View Post
    Hi Charles,

    sounds like an interesting project ... would be very useful if we had a loose budget . Tons of members within that radius with and equal amount of knowledge and ideas .

    Rich

  6. #6
    RE: Member when? subwoof's Avatar
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    suggestion

    A few idea's, thoughts and a sales pitch.

    (1) I have a pair of 813B cabinets here in central NY you can have for dirt cheap. even have the grills ( need a little repair though ) Also have the crossovers.

    (2) Go newer for the HF....a seller in ohio on ebay has a pile of 2352 1.5" horns for a decent price. Put a 2450SL on those and you are DONE. add UHF if you have extra bats around you need to deal with. I have (4) trap cabs with 2226G and 2352/2450SL that I built that are very close to the JBL 4726A in size. Easy to EQ and very smooth. The older metal lens are pricey to source, REQUIRE uhf and have vertical pattern issues.

    (3) Do not use the D75 for any PA project, period. Get a CT210 for cheap and put a comp/crossover card in it. the d75 is a great near field monitor / headphone amp but is TOO SMALL for any direct compression driver app - one clip and it's all over. KACHING...

    (4) I have (4) techron/GE 10KW monoblocks if you want to do subs right. Put the same length wire to each cone ( up to 16 eight ohm cones per amp ) and you have perfect phase integrity.

    (5) instead of a megabuck processor how about a crown/BSS 8810? combine 8 inputs with 10 outputs that can have all kinds of delay / filtering and such...500 bucks....easy to setup with an ethernet cable.

    sub
    << too many to list anymore >>

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    Thanks very much for your insight and input.. will try to pick up a cheaper BSS unit first.. salesman was all to kind to offer me a demo for the London

    D75 would be for the tweeter arrays.. running bridged, 1 for each.. or perhaps for the 2405,s in the booth monitors, I like this amp very low noise for tweeters..

    I have 3 PS-200,s a D150As2 avail. for the compression drivers.

    If I go custom, wood horns are a must, it has been decided as far as I'm concerned they look and sound beautiful.. perhaps JBL 2450J loaded, try out some diaphragms.. or pay for TAD.. or BMS.. this is an important part of the system.. so I will have to try out different stuff on the clients ears

    2405 or 2402 or both are a must too, if I could go with what I really want..

    --

    Last night I went out to a local club in Montreal running two stacks..

    two Richard Long 'Emerald' style cabinets loaded with 2242H on each side of the room (4 total), powered by 1 macrotech 3600vz (nice low end)

    two JBL 4520 scoops, with 2226G, powered by macrotech 3600vz (decent midbass)

    mids and highs, 2x 10" per stack, 2x 1" compression driver.. The highs were harsh, the compression drivers were running too hot, I checked the amp rack with a friend and there wasnt enough power for the 10" mids and 1" compression drivers, the amp was burning hot also.. prob would sound a lot better with more power.

    club is called Cherry.. address, 417 St-Pierre in the Old Port for any local 4520 fans

    __

    The thought is to go smaller than the 4520 scoops.. as far as venues and most ppl are concerned theyre too big..

    I think the size of the 813 is my upper limit for a box.. some sound techs have even pointed me to a PRX635 system, telling me its the way to go at around 1k per, its 6000 or 8000 for a complete system for the tops and I can get whatever for the subs..

    problem.. not sexy. as the thread is titled : Big Loud Party Speakers, one thing is left out.. the sexy aspect. They have to look stunning and function as good as a strong PA with very detailed studio characteristics

    thanks for the offer on the cabs.. I have a house in upstate NY near Malone, NY.. may take you up on that if the project requires we source those style cabinets for the final option.

    Those amps and style subs are one option.. but everytime I hear a 2242 loaded emerald properly set up, it what I have learned to love for bass.. and now I am thinking horn loaded again!! merde

    Quote Originally Posted by subwoof View Post
    A few idea's, thoughts and a sales pitch.

    (1) I have a pair of 813B cabinets here in central NY you can have for dirt cheap. even have the grills ( need a little repair though ) Also have the crossovers.

    (2) Go newer for the HF....a seller in ohio on ebay has a pile of 2352 1.5" horns for a decent price. Put a 2450SL on those and you are DONE. add UHF if you have extra bats around you need to deal with. I have (4) trap cabs with 2226G and 2352/2450SL that I built that are very close to the JBL 4726A in size. Easy to EQ and very smooth. The older metal lens are pricey to source, REQUIRE uhf and have vertical pattern issues.

    (3) Do not use the D75 for any PA project, period. Get a CT210 for cheap and put a comp/crossover card in it. the d75 is a great near field monitor / headphone amp but is TOO SMALL for any direct compression driver app - one clip and it's all over. KACHING...

    (4) I have (4) techron/GE 10KW monoblocks if you want to do subs right. Put the same length wire to each cone ( up to 16 eight ohm cones per amp ) and you have perfect phase integrity.

    (5) instead of a megabuck processor how about a crown/BSS 8810? combine 8 inputs with 10 outputs that can have all kinds of delay / filtering and such...500 bucks....easy to setup with an ethernet cable.

    sub

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    Thanks very much for your insight and input.. will try to pick up a cheaper BSS unit first.. salesman was all to kind to offer me a demo for the London

    D75 would be for the tweeter arrays.. running bridged, 1 for each.. or perhaps for the 2405,s in the booth monitors, I like this amp very low noise for tweeters..

    I have 3 PS-200,s a D150As2 avail. for the compression drivers.

    If I go custom, wood horns are a must, it has been decided as far as I'm concerned they look and sound beautiful.. perhaps JBL 2450J loaded, try out some diaphragms.. or pay for TAD..

    2405 or 2402 or both are a must too, if I could go with what I really want..

    --

    Last night I went out to a local club in Montreal running two stacks..

    two Richard Long 'Emerald' style cabinets loaded with 2242H on each side of the room (4 total), powered by 1 macrotech 3600vz (nice low end)

    two JBL 4520 scoops, with 2226G, powered by macrotech 3600vz (decent midbass)

    mids and highs, 2x 10" per stack, 1x 1" compression driver.. The highs were harsh, the compression drivers were running too hot, I checked the amp rack with a friend and there wasnt enough power for the 10" mids and 1" compression drivers, the amp was burning hot also.. prob would sound a lot better with more power.

    club is called Cherry.. address, 417 St-Pierre in the Old Port for any local 4520 fans

    __

    The thought is to go smaller than the 4520 scoops.. as far as venues and most ppl are concerned theyre too big..

    I think the size of the 813 is my upper limit for a box.. some sound techs have even pointed me to a PRX635 system, telling me its the way to go at around 1k per, its 6000 or 8000 for a complete system for the tops and I can get whatever for the subs..

    problem.. not sexy. as the thread is titled : Big Loud Party Speakers, one thing is left out.. the sexy aspect. They have to look stunning and function as good as a strong PA with very detailed studio characteristics

    Quote Originally Posted by subwoof View Post
    A few idea's, thoughts and a sales pitch.

    (1) I have a pair of 813B cabinets here in central NY you can have for dirt cheap. even have the grills ( need a little repair though ) Also have the crossovers.

    (2) Go newer for the HF....a seller in ohio on ebay has a pile of 2352 1.5" horns for a decent price. Put a 2450SL on those and you are DONE. add UHF if you have extra bats around you need to deal with. I have (4) trap cabs with 2226G and 2352/2450SL that I built that are very close to the JBL 4726A in size. Easy to EQ and very smooth. The older metal lens are pricey to source, REQUIRE uhf and have vertical pattern issues.

    (3) Do not use the D75 for any PA project, period. Get a CT210 for cheap and put a comp/crossover card in it. the d75 is a great near field monitor / headphone amp but is TOO SMALL for any direct compression driver app - one clip and it's all over. KACHING...

    (4) I have (4) techron/GE 10KW monoblocks if you want to do subs right. Put the same length wire to each cone ( up to 16 eight ohm cones per amp ) and you have perfect phase integrity.

    (5) instead of a megabuck processor how about a crown/BSS 8810? combine 8 inputs with 10 outputs that can have all kinds of delay / filtering and such...500 bucks....easy to setup with an ethernet cable.

    sub

  9. #9
    RE: Member when? subwoof's Avatar
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    teeny tiny

    You are *still* using amplifiers that are too small...d75,150 and PS200 are too small for SAFE use with compression drivers..maybe in a small living room but NOT for a party system. you just listened to a club system with not enough HF power...is that what you want?


    the crown CTS4200 and 8200 have switching power supplies but the output sections are analog and based on the same design as the D series. Save some space and get protection to boot. Stay away from the amplifier bridging game - I repair amps and that's where many meet their doom. You stress the output section and power supply for little db gain. Just get more power and let the amps run cool.


    "They have to look stunning and function as good as a strong PA with very detailed studio characteristics"

    this statement conflicts with itself. maybe an emphasis on one aspect??

    if you're looking for a woodshop / veneer project, I have one for you. PM sent.

    sub
    << too many to list anymore >>

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    Senior Member louped garouv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles0322 View Post
    The first system will be my pair of Urei 813B with two subs using the 2226, pricing out materials tomorrow at my friends CNC shop for subs. Right now the Urei`s are powered by two Bryston 4B,s in bridged mono. Original Urei time align networks.. the subs will be powered with second hand crown amplifiers, and we will have to find a way to integrate them into the Urei setup...
    I know that Acoustilog on at least one occasion built a TD-1 (a time-delay/crossover unit, first built for and used at the Garage, from my understanding) for use under a pair of 813 monitors for a nyc hip hop studio... I am unsure of the crossover frequency that was used... but do have the unit if you want some pics of it.....

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    Acoustilog was perhaps the real brains behind the garage and especially the processing..

    It would seem that bullet tweeters are back in style.. http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?

    This is the new Marquis Dance Stack system from JBL pro..
    PId=421&MId=2
    http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?FId=98&MId=2

    I think the system looks great and would love to hear it in action vs. the stacked system at District 36 in NYC, using `traditonal`RLA styled dance stack, with new style DSP.

    Have you been to D36 Louped?




    Quote Originally Posted by louped garouv View Post
    I know that Acoustilog on at least one occasion built a TD-1 (a time-delay/crossover unit, first built for and used at the Garage, from my understanding) for use under a pair of 813 monitors for a nyc hip hop studio... I am unsure of the crossover frequency that was used... but do have the unit if you want some pics of it.....

  12. #12
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Hi Charles

    Trying to understand what your needs are. Big loft party system... Don't you have a friend with eight 4520s? Grab two, load with 2225s or 2220s. Front horn loaded lower mid cabinet on top, and the usual mid horn with 2" compression drivers, and 2405 on top. With a digital crossover/processor, the whole systen can sound very hifi. If you don't want to use scoops, then replace each 4520 by a pair of BR cabinets with twin 2226 in each and skip the lower mid cabinet. You'll get a 3-way system. A 24" x 36" x 20" cabinet loaded with two 2226 is easier to move around than a big 4520.

  13. #13
    Senior Member pos's Avatar
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    Hi Charles

    So you will put (2) TM1201 per side for your dj booth, like in Stereo club in Montreal?
    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post311962

    May I recommend truextent diaphragms in 2446 or 2450 drivers to put on your A290?
    They require more eq in the top end than plain Ti SL diaphragms, but you get ~3dB more efficiency in the mid band, and the UHF once EQed is quite nice (it does not rely on spurious surround resonances).

    Quote Originally Posted by subwoof View Post
    Put the same length wire to each cone ( up to 16 eight ohm cones per amp ) and you have perfect phase integrity.
    That I have difficulties to understand.
    Sound travels in speaker wires near the speed of light, that is in the realms of 1,000,000 times the speed of sound.
    1km of speaker cable induces the same delay as 1mm of air travel!
    I think it is a good principle to keep cables as short (and thick) as possible for each speaker, especially for sub duty (damping factor)

  14. #14
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pos View Post
    Sound travels in speaker wires near the speed of light
    If I would be a picky guy, I would point out that sound does not travel in speaker wires, electricity does... But I'm not a picky guy
    Still I agree with you on the fact that wire length has no effect on speaker phasing, let alone LF speakers.
    My avatar: 4520 loaded with 2225H on E140 frames,
    1x B&C 12PE32 on custom front loaded horn, 2x 2426 on 2370.

  15. #15
    Senior Member louped garouv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles0322 View Post
    Have you been to D36 Louped?
    unfortunately no....

    i'm in denver... and don't make it up to nyc often enough
    (or anywhere else, for that matter)

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