Good CD player for 4412s?

[Mr. Widget]

But if there isn't much differences in CD players, and my new Music Streamer DAC sounds pretty-much like my CD player, I'm not sure how much a $2000 DAC could add. I'm sure you know your equipment MR. Widget and I'm sure the Bryston is better for a few dozen reasons, but isn't this getting into the same argument as a $20,000 CD player?

I didn't mean to imply there isn't much difference in all CD players... there are many very costly CD players that are significantly better sounding than the sub $1200 players. No, what I was trying to convey was that in my experience and in my opinion, there is little need to "upgrade" a CD player from a $200 player to a $1000 player. However since Dave, the thread starter, was considering spending $800 on a CD player and $500 on a DAC, I suggested a path that while costing a bit more than his total, in my opinion, a better investment would be in buying an excellent DAC which will continue to be useful even after the demise of the CD and if combined with a pretty average CD transport will approach the sound of that mythical $20K CD player. I have no idea how good the Music Streamer is, but if it doesn't sound significantly better than your CD player that is likely because it uses similar opamps and DAC chips to those found in the sub $1200 CD players.

At this point I'd rather spend $2000 on better recordings and put them on my computer and listen to them on my new $150 DAC!

I certainly can't argue with that... though I'd strongly suggest you stop paying money for lossy compressed music. DACs, music servers, amps, and speakers are all likely to be replaced over time, though you will likely want to keep your music.


Widget

[richluvsound]

My 2 cents ... ( from experience )

I use a M2 Tech Young DAC ( $1500 ) and a DVD player that cost me 20 bucks off eBay. I have owned and used both components costing 10 times that .... Has the sound been 10X better ? Not to my ears and the ears of a few others ... In fact , the only person not like the sound was a hifi dealer selling MSB .
The MSB is a fine bit of kit , but look at the price !

Rich

[pathfindermwd]

and if combined with a pretty average CD transport will approach the sound of that mythical $20K CD player. I have no idea how good the Music Streamer is, but if it doesn't sound significantly better than your CD player that is likely because it uses similar opamps and DAC chips to those found in the sub $1200 CD players.

I certainly can't argue with that... though I'd strongly suggest you stop paying money for lossy compressed music. DACs, music servers, amps, and speakers are all likely to be replaced over time, though you will likely want to keep your music.


Widget

Oohh. I see. I thought you didn't think too much of a USB DAC. I think I understand what you are saying now. To be clear, you seem to be saying Why buy a bunch of components with high quality DAC's when you can buy just one...cool. In that case $2k is a bargain over the long term of various inexpensive components. Now I feel a bit stupid..I wasn't fully aware that a digital output would bypass all the low end DAC's in gear. Now I understand how to improve my gear for alot less money. Thanks!


Music Streamer does have a Burr-Brown DAC, albiet some basic offering. The DAc may sound a bit better than my CD player, it's so close it's hard to tell, but I didn't/couldn't ascribe to it being better, I'll have to listen again... In any event, I wasn't counting on it being that good, all the better!

Yeah, I used to own alot of music, but over time it has been stolen, or ruined by misuse. My car stereo was stolen, and I just gave up on having anything nice. Finally it (CD's) wasn't that portable. Then I found cheap/free music on the internet. I bought new gear but never got around to rebuilding my CD music library much, and computer music is just much more convenient, if I want a new song, I just download it immediately.

I'm sure your right about the CD's becoming a thing of the past. The future is undoubtedly in downloading. But what is going to inspire the music industry to offer larger files when they are already getting full price for a 128kb/sec song/album? At 10x the size, bandwidth becomes an issue especially on their end.

[Mr. Widget]

Music Streamer does have a Burr-Brown DAC, albiet some basic offering. The DAc may sound a bit better than my CD player, it's so close it's hard to tell, but I didn't/couldn't ascribe to it being better, I'll have to listen again... In any event, I wasn't counting on it being that good, all the better!

Burr-Brown, over sampling etc. really aren't the point... it is all in the implementation and quality costs. A number of forum members have had good luck building DAC kits. I haven't heard any yet, but that may be a good way to get superior performance at a reduced cost.

I'm sure your right about the CD's becoming a thing of the past. The future is undoubtedly in downloading. But what is going to inspire the music industry to offer larger files when they are already getting full price for a 128kb/sec song/album? At 10x the size, bandwidth becomes an issue especially on their end.

There are companies that offer hi-res downloads... but only on limited selections. Personally, I am still buying CDs and ripping them to my drive using lossless compression. Drive space just keeps getting cheaper and cheaper... but definitely back up, all drives will fail eventually.


Widget

[Rolf]

I personally would buy a $2000 Bryston DAC and a $25 CD player with coax output... obviously a used CD player at that price point. As for computer music playback, I would not use the USB input on the DAC. I would either use a sound card with SPIF output or I'd buy a high quality USB/SPDIF or USB/AES EBU converter... basically I feel CDs will not be with us all that much longer just as Laser Discs and Tape have gone away. (Please, I know some people still play wax cylinders but for all intents and purposes... these are dead, dead, dead.)I haven't heard much if any repeatable differences between CD players as transports, but the DACs and analog sections do seem to make a big difference. That said, the difference between a $200 and a $1200 CD player is marginal at best.

Realize, these are the experiences of a fellow who has had little luck definitively documenting cable differences with repeatable results.


Widget

Hi Widget. I own a Burmester CD player. Not one of the extreamly costly ones. About US$ 6000. I have tested external DAC's, both those in a 5.1 surround processors, (price around US$ 10.000) and only external DAC's, (price around US$ 5000), and after carefully listening I use the DAC in my CD player. If you look at the price difference, my CD player is really cheap comparing to the 5.1 processors og exsternal DAC's. I have never tested a US$ 25 connected to an US$ 2000 DAC, but I believe that last combination is a great improovement.

Another thing to think about if one buy a used CD player is that tha laser has a limitid lifetime. There are great variation of the laser, and the cheaper they are the lifetime of the laser is poorer and poorer. And to buy a new laser is costly, if you are lucky to find the correct type.

[grumpy]

That last point is worth weighing in any consideration of a used digital disc transport. "cheap" may still win, but hassle may also.

Closer to the original topic, I still have to wonder about the Cambridge low end issue... a conscious design choice? a defective unit? Might a current buffer help? Poor vibration isolation? Seems odd that a $79 CD player could pound and this higher aspiration unit could not.

[SEAWOLF97]

an old family saying ....

"used quality is better than new crap"

[Dave Dunbar]

All very interesting. Until the money tree I've planted reaches maturity, I fear I won't be buying a DAC costings into the thousands. But I'm quite happy with the MusicStreamer II +. I've run a lot of downlaods from HD Tracks through it, and they sound fantastic on the 4412s. No complaints. And for what it's worth, asyncrouous USB inputs, as in the Streamers, seem to sound to make a difference in my limited comparisons.

To BMWCCA: I also have a pristine pair of L110s, so I know what you mean about bass.

To pathfinderwmd: The point of a DAC is to bypass the inner workings of your computer and provide a cleaner path from the material on your drive to your electronics. If you take a digital output from your computer's sound card, nothing you hear can sound any better than that card. I haven't heard every sound card out there, but in my experience, a decent DAC is usually the better way.

To Mr. Widget: Thanks for acknowledging that there can be differences in the sound of CD players. I would respectfully submit that my recent informal tests of five CD players in the $400 to $800 range revealed that each had a very audible sound characteristic that differentiated it from the others. I'm reasonably sure that CD players which cost a lot more probably sound a lot better, but it is quite possible to get respectably audio from a player under a grand.

As for the future of CDs, there's no question that most people listen to music from some form of hard drive these days. I don't enjoy compressed music, so my .wav files would fill an iPhone in a hurry. I'm very happy to listen in my music room, mostly to my hard drive or CDs. We have a classical station here in Cincinnati that cares about audio, so I sometimes listen to it. Their HD-2 signal is jazz, and I like that. I have thousands of CDs of big band, top 40, old R&B, pop vocals, some easy listening and even some "Nashville Sound" era country. I enjoy holding a CD in my hands and punching buttons to play them. Anything wrong with that? I read hard copy newspapers but am never without my iPhone, and we have five computers in the house. I enjoy a little of the new and a little of the old. I make no apologies for likeing my CDs. Or my computer music system.

Thanks again for the comments. I enjoyed them.

[Mr. Widget]

To Mr. Widget: Thanks for acknowledging that there can be differences in the sound of CD players. I would respectfully submit that my recent informal tests of five CD players in the $400 to $800 range revealed that each had a very audible sound characteristic that differentiated it from the others.

My point was that while most of the CD players I have listened to cost between $150 and $1200, I couldn't pick one out as clearly superior... different you bet, but on my system with my musical selections, I never found a direct correlation between price and quality.

As for liking to play discs... I get that. I am currently using a secondhand Meridian transport as one of the sources for my DAC. Will I still play discs in 5 years? I have no idea though I still spin the black discs.

As for dishing out "thousands on a DAC" I only went there because you seemed prepared to spend $1300 on a CD player and DAC. I wasn't suggesting you had to buy a $2K DAC, but rather it seemed a better outlay to minimize the CD player's cost and focus on something that could make CD playback and your computer playback sound better too. As I said, there have been some DAC kits that have met with positive reviews here on the forum. I imagine that DACs will continue to improve and the cost should come down.

Just some things to think about...


Widget

[4313B]

Until the money tree I've planted reaches maturity, I fear I won't be buying a DAC costings into the thousands.

There's nothing about them that should cost that much. But people say the same thing about JBL recone kits too.

I imagine that DACs will continue to improve and the cost should come down.

I certainly hope so. I want an "audiophile grade" DAC that fits in a slot and can be upgraded as technology improves.

As for the future of CDs, there's no question that most people listen to music from some form of hard drive these days.

I can't wait for the day that I never have to clean a record or look for a cd again. All this stuff should be completely computerized, including the legacy album art.

I don't enjoy compressed music, so my .wav files would fill an iPhone in a hurry. I'm very happy to listen in my music room, mostly to my hard drive or CDs.

It's really too bad that it wasn't quite ready for prime time when the cat was let out of the bag. It wasn't too long after that some people realized that it was effed up from the get-go and now they're trying to fix it. We all probably still remember those first few years of vinyl versus cd. Convenience won the day. We just shouldn't have had to give up quality to get it.

[Krunchy]

That last point is worth weighing in any consideration of a used digital disc transport. "cheap" may still win, but hassle may also.

Closer to the original topic, I still have to wonder about the Cambridge low end issue... a conscious design choice? a defective unit? Might a current buffer help? Poor vibration isolation? Seems odd that a $79 CD player could pound and this higher aspiration unit could not.

I'm at a loss about the cambridge brand myself.
I have a Cambridge that I purchased in '07 (the Azur 640c), it was in the $500 range, it sits in my office and gets moderate use, in the last year and a half its been showing signs of malfunctioning. The display light sometimes does not work and sometimes it does. This is a complete mystery to me, this unit has hardly been "abused" and has no reason to be acting up in any way, but it does and therefore I deem it a piece of junk (to be polite).
I have two used adcom gcd750s that are far superior to the cambridge in every way except maybe cosmetically but who gives a c___ about that. The adcoms can be had for a reasonable price, as it relates to quality, there's that elusive term again, just keeps popping up.

[SEAWOLF97]

My main living room system is the 250Ti's fed by vinyl, cd & md sources ..this last year I added a big (19 inch screen) Vaio laptop that has mini-Toslink output ...ran that digi stream through an older Adcom GDA-600 DAC and that is one of the smoothest combos that you could imagine ...makes Pandora actually sound very good.
I've also run the CD-ES and minidisk player into the GDA with very little improvement. They must already have pretty good internal DACs

have also run the laptop from just the headphone jack, bypassing the Adcom, and it sounds pretty nice too , it must have a good quality DAC inside.

agree with an earlier poster that there really is nothing inside the current DACs to justify their price

[Mr. Widget]

agree with an earlier poster that there really is nothing inside the current DACs to justify their price

I am not trying to argue with you, but have you tried any really good DACs? Comparing an older low-mid priced CD player's internal DAC with an older low-mid priced DAC from another company... I wouldn't expect much difference.

As for dissing current DACs... digital audio has actually come a long way in recent years. This is an area where real sonic improvements have been made. An excellent properly running older turntable won't be all that different from a new one, but the very best DAC or CD player from 10-15 years ago is not going to compete with a quality newer unit. Your 250ti speakers are resolving enough for you to hear the difference, you might borrow something "ridiculously expensive" just to see what they are capable of.

Now, as to what justifies a certain price? I suppose that is like art... eye of the beholder and all that. If something sounds better and I can afford it then it is worth it to me. If it is amazingly better but I can't afford it, then it may still be worth it, but I must do without. Justifying a price may be a matter of craftsmanship and materials for a piece of furniture, but in audio, ultimately it is about performance.


Widget

[louped garouv]

I'm sure your right about the CD's becoming a thing of the past. The future is undoubtedly in downloading. But what is going to inspire the music industry to offer larger files when they are already getting full price for a 128kb/sec song/album? At 10x the size, bandwidth becomes an issue especially on their end.

the inspiration is already happening, 320kb/s files are considered the requirement in terms of digital resolution that many of the higher end DJ types will require for professional use...
it's the bedroom jocks that are playing 128s etc...



heck, the guys I know that are into digital music 100% prefer WAV or FLAC (or other 'lossless' formats) -- OOG Vorbis is about the only lossy format that i know touring professionals are using.... (and will readily admit to )

bandwidth and storage are both extremely cheap compared to worldwide distribution of LPs or 2" tape....

[richluvsound]

I'm at a loss about the cambridge brand myself.
I have a Cambridge that I purchased in '07 (the Azur 640c), it was in the $500 range, it sits in my office and gets moderate use, in the last year and a half its been showing signs of malfunctioning. The display light sometimes does not work and sometimes it does. This is a complete mystery to me, this unit has hardly been "abused" and has no reason to be acting up in any way, but it does and therefore I deem it a piece of junk (to be polite).
I have two used adcom gcd750s that are far superior to the cambridge in every way except maybe cosmetically but who gives a c___ about that. The adcoms can be had for a reasonable price, as it relates to quality, there's that elusive term again, just keeps popping up.

Cambridge is not the same as the AR - Cambridge of 15 -20 years ago ... Cambridge is marketed as a budget brand here . They had some success with 840 ,but never got good reviews from the independents .
I was wondering if there is such a thing as voicing with components as there is with speakers . That would explain the LF of the Cambridge gear ... The same with Quad , Chord and a few other brands I have heard . There seems to be a dryness to the sound , very detailed and bright ,but no real dynamics .
Could it be perhaps ,that in general with have smaller rooms here in the UK ,therefore more reliance is based on room gain to fill out the low end .
It has been said before ,that the output-stage is the most critical part of any CD player ... Mass produced mid priced in a nice looking box will always finds its suckers .
TD makes a good point about , looks VS quality ...

There is nothing wrong with the 4412...it punches high above its weight , but you can't put crap in and expect the 4412 to polish it .

Dac's are getting better , and your getting more for your buck too ... Wolfson are used in the higher priced Macs ... and I see Oppo are using the Sabre DAC chip . I would like to here that machine ... Good value for money as it comes with USB in put . Cd - Pre amp .. useful !

Rich