Good CD player for 4412s?

[Dave Dunbar]

I should have asked this question on this forum before I bought. I bought a Cambridge Azur 650C because it had the cleanest high end of any lower cost CD player I tried. I'm increasingly dissatisfied with the bass response. I'm running a MacIntosh C27 pre-amp into an Adcom 555 amp. I'm using the Music Streamer 2 + for digital, and I love it. Anyone have any suggestions on a CD player which won't overwhelm the 4412's tweaters, but will still have a nice clean midrange and a solid bottom? I'm very disappointed with the Cambridge. The control functions are odd (no means to return to the beginning of the current song) and it won't play compilations burned in a Roxio program. I don't enjoy using it, but it's the only thing I can find that doesn't make the highs on the 4412s sound shrill on older (60s and 70s) female vocals. I'm about to the point where I'd sell it at a loss. Ideas? Thanks!

[SEAWOLF97]

I've usually stuck with Sony ES (elevated standard) on CD & MD decks ..and have never been disappointed, I'm sure others will jump in with their favs ..and some Euro guys will tell you that there is nothing decent under 3K-USD, but there certainly is.

that CD player you bought did get good ink , at least from AudioAdvisor. Could your problem possibly be elsewhere ?

speaker placement ?
power ? (I have to ask, tho the 555 is a nice amp)
did your system sound better on a diff CD player OR
is this the first in the system ?
bass OK on other sources ?
polarity ?

[Dave Dunbar]

Anyone have a suggestion on a good CD player? A player which would mate well with my 4412s? I'm using a MacIntosh C27 pre-amp and an Adcom 555 amp. Right now, I've got a Cambridge Azur 650C, which I bought for the silky highs, and because it doesn't overwhelm the 4412 tweeters. BUT...the 650C is bass-shy and I'm having to dial in some EQ from my Soundcraftsmen 2215 to balance the sound. I'd rather not have to resort to the EQ. Also, I don't like the funky/strange controls on the Cambridge. I'm open to ideas if someone has good suggestions. I tried the Emotiva and the Vincent CD400 (both way too hot on the highs) and the Marantz 5004 (sounded distant and a bit muffled to me) before settling on the Cambridge. But wimpy bass is a high price to pay for those sweet Cambridge highs.

[Rolf]

It depends how much money you are willing to use. You could buy a Burmester to US$ 20.000,00. I am sure you will be satisfied.

[hjames]

Please Rolf - get real - why would you recommend that ANYONE put a super-high end machine ($20,000 - ???)
on a mid priced speaker??
Its not like vinyl where there is wear on the media ...

It depends how much money you are willing to use. You could buy a Burmester to US$ 20.000,00. I am sure you will be satisfied.

[grumpy]

Apologies for seeming harsh, but it seems like your premise is unlikely to bear fruit.

Unless the 4412's are entirely not to your liking (a possibility),
I have a hard time imagining the effectiveness of trying to match
a CD player to -them-.

Whether the CD player is a match for your Mac pre input impedance (100kohms)
or there is something else amiss in your system (pre dc-blocking caps?, loudness
control working?, ...) seem like better candidates for 'bass-shyness' or high end tizziness.

I personally would not characterize 4412's as bass-shy ... I could see where someone
might have other preferences in that area, or perhaps more importantly in the tweeter
range, but to point at the Cambridge as problematic in either area seems... odd.

It may very well help to try another digital source, just to convince yourself
(or to prove me wrong )

[Rolf]

It was a joke! Come on. Sorry if I offended someone.

[Mr. Widget]

Apologies for seeming harsh, but it seems like your premise is unlikely to bear fruit.

In a world where changing speaker wires can make or break a system for some, I suppose anything is possible, but in my opinion, you need to spend stupid money to get a CD player with SIGNIFICANTLY superior performance. My recommendation is to buy the best DAC as you can afford as it will work with all digital sources, and buy a decent CD player with SPDIF outs... if your current player already has a coax digital SPDIF output you are good to go.

Widget

[Rolf]

That is a good idea Widget. Maybe a better idea is if a good DAC is included in the CD player? Don't really know.

In a world where changing speaker wires can make or break a system for some, I suppose anything is possible, but in my opinion, you need to spend stupid money to get a CD player with SIGNIFICANTLY superior performance. My recommendation is to buy the best DAC as you can afford as it will work with all digital sources, and buy a decent CD player with SPDIF outs... if your current player already has a coax digital SPDIF output you are good to go.

Widget

[Dave Dunbar]

All very interesting. Until the money tree I've planted reaches maturity, I fear I won't be buying a DAC costings into the thousands. But I'm quite happy with the MusicStreamer II +. I've run a lot of downlaods from HD Tracks through it, and they sound fantastic on the 4412s. No complaints. And for what it's worth, asyncrouous USB inputs, as in the Streamers, seem to sound to make a difference in my limited comparisons.

To BMWCCA: I also have a pristine pair of L110s, so I know what you mean about bass.

To pathfinderwmd: The point of a DAC is to bypass the inner workings of your computer and provide a cleaner path from the material on your drive to your electronics. If you take a digital output from your computer's sound card, nothing you hear can sound any better than that card. I haven't heard every sound card out there, but in my experience, a decent DAC is usually the better way.

To Mr. Widget: Thanks for acknowledging that there can be differences in the sound of CD players. I would respectfully submit that my recent informal tests of five CD players in the $400 to $800 range revealed that each had a very audible sound characteristic that differentiated it from the others. I'm reasonably sure that CD players which cost a lot more probably sound a lot better, but it is quite possible to get respectably audio from a player under a grand.

As for the future of CDs, there's no question that most people listen to music from some form of hard drive these days. I don't enjoy compressed music, so my .wav files would fill an iPhone in a hurry. I'm very happy to listen in my music room, mostly to my hard drive or CDs. We have a classical station here in Cincinnati that cares about audio, so I sometimes listen to it. Their HD-2 signal is jazz, and I like that. I have thousands of CDs of big band, top 40, old R&B, pop vocals, some easy listening and even some "Nashville Sound" era country. I enjoy holding a CD in my hands and punching buttons to play them. Anything wrong with that? I read hard copy newspapers but am never without my iPhone, and we have five computers in the house. I enjoy a little of the new and a little of the old. I make no apologies for likeing my CDs. Or my computer music system.

Thanks again for the comments. I enjoyed them.

[BMWCCA]

Unless the 4412's are entirely not to your liking (a possibility), I have a hard time imagining the effectiveness of trying to match a CD player to -them-.

I've never understood questions of this type. Buy the best equipment you can afford and it'll likely work out. I don't understand a complaint of "wimpy bass" from the L112, either, though they can be substantially affected by position with respect to boundary reinforcement.

[Dave Dunbar]

Thanks to all for the thoughtful responses.

I love the 4412s, hence the search for the best-matched sources. Nothing I've heard matches that very forward and detailed "you are there" characteristic of a nice set of JBL monitors. I'd sure miss it if I didn't have it.

Grumpy, the bottom end on the 4412s is stellar, and obviates the need for a sub. No question about that. As noted earlier, I'm using decent a decent amp and pre-amp, and both were recently refurbished as needed by excellent audiophile shops. I'm using good quality connectors. I'm using a near-field listening position (6-7') with the 4412s five feet apart. The room is dedicated to sound and damped as needed.

I've decided to upgrade sources after hearing better highs at the home of a friend who reviews audiophile gear for a well-known web site.

At this gentleman's home, I had a chance to audition the Cambridge on several "entry level" audiophile speakers in the $2000 to $4000 range, and several other listeners agreed that my Cambridge Azur 650C was lacking in bass. My friend's reference CD is a ten-year-old Sony ES, and it sounded hands-down better than the Cambridge on lows and mids, and almost matched it on highs. Considering the Cambridge's incredibly good high end, that says a lot for the Sony.

I was willing to spend up to $800 on the CD and $500 on a DAC. The Cambridge won over the Marantz, the Emotiva and the Vincent, all because of its silky smooth high end. The Cambridge has incredible mid-range detail, too. But it has stupid, funky control layouts (hard to use). And there's that issue with lame bass. I never thought I'd say "lame bass" and "JBL 4412" in the same sentence.

SEAWOLF97, I now know that I should have included the Sony ES line in my sampling. I wasn't sure that their newer units would be as good as my friend's older ES unit. Any thoughts here?

For Rolf and Mr. Widget: I gone the DAC route for material on my hard drive. I chose the MusicStreamer II+ as the best match with the 4412s (to my ear). The DAC Magic didn't have as good a high end on USB as the Azur 650C, and was also a bit bass shy. The V-DAC was just too hot for the JBLs on both ends. The Streamer has a solid, clean bottom, detailed mids and a clean high end. The high end can be a tad recessive on some older material, so I've given in and added about 3db of high boost in those cases. That's a better solution for me than the others, which had more than one issue. By the way, I want to have a good CD player, so I can just pop one in and listen, without transferring the music to my hard drive. I've got the Streamer for HD Tracks and so forth. Love it, but there's a big place in my music room for discs, too.

Right now, I'm still feeling disappointment with the Azur 650C. I'm paying a high price for the best high end match for the 4412s, but at the cost of annoying ergonomics and a lame bottom end. I'm considering either the Mapleshade 650C upgrade ($445 to get bass! Ouch!!) or selling it and looking for a vintage ES player.

I've learned from this exercise that the 4412s are even better than I thought they were, but you have to match them with just the right gear. But once you do, the result is stunning.

Thanks again for all of your comments.

[SEAWOLF97]

My friend's reference CD is a ten-year-old Sony ES, and it sounded hands-down better than the Cambridge on lows and mids, and almost matched it on highs. Considering the Cambridge's incredibly good high end, that says a lot for the Sony.

SEAWOLF97, I now know that I should have included the Sony ES line in my sampling. I wasn't sure that their newer units would be as good as my friend's older ES unit. Any thoughts here? I'm considering either the Mapleshade 650C upgrade ($445 to get bass! Ouch!!) or selling it and looking for a vintage ES player.

Mapleshade ?? I'm sure Pierre is a innovative guy for sure, I read his catalogs but just shake my head (no,no,no) , he could be onto something, but I just can buy it ...if you don't like the controls anyway, his upgrade won't fix that.

My 2 good ES-CD desks are in the LR on the 250Ti & demo systems ...on the big BR system ..the CD player (Carver) got wiggy and needed replacing ...all I needed was a single disk, simple good sounding deck . Walked through a thrift and spotted a pristine CDP-Xa1ES deck for CHEAP ...no remote, but most Sony remotes are interchangeable .....wonderful sound, very reliable and I looked it up and found on Stereophiles recommended components ...have no problem recommending that one too. ( I was afraid of losing the deal and so strapped it onto my touring bike for the long trip home, nervous all the way)

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/digit...0_1586crx.aspx

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/bbr....istmodls&&Sony

my guess is that the newer ES models are even better , but usually if you buy a XA1, the shipping will be more than the deck.

[Mr. Widget]

For Rolf and Mr. Widget: I gone the DAC route for material on my hard drive. I chose the MusicStreamer II+ as the best match with the 4412s (to my ear).

I personally would buy a $2000 Bryston DAC and a $25 CD player with coax output... obviously a used CD player at that price point. As for computer music playback, I would not use the USB input on the DAC. I would either use a sound card with SPIF output or I'd buy a high quality USB/SPDIF or USB/AES EBU converter... basically I feel CDs will not be with us all that much longer just as Laser Discs and Tape have gone away. (Please, I know some people still play wax cylinders but for all intents and purposes... these are dead, dead, dead.)I haven't heard much if any repeatable differences between CD players as transports, but the DACs and analog sections do seem to make a big difference. That said, the difference between a $200 and a $1200 CD player is marginal at best.

Realize, these are the experiences of a fellow who has had little luck definitively documenting cable differences with repeatable results.


Widget

[pathfindermwd]

I personally would buy a $2000 Bryston DAC and a $25 CD player with coax output... obviously a used CD player at that price point. As for computer music playback, I would not use the USB input on the DAC. I would either use a sound card with SPIF output or I'd buy a high quality USB/SPDIF or USB/AES EBU converter... basically I feel CDs will not be with us all that much longer just as Laser Discs and Tape have gone away. (Please, I know some people still play wax cylinders but for all intents and purposes... these are dead, dead, dead.)I haven't heard much if any repeatable differences between CD players as transports, but the DACs and analog sections do seem to make a big difference. That said, the difference between a $200 and a $1200 CD player is marginal at best.

Realize, these are the experiences of a fellow who has had little luck definitively documenting cable differences with repeatable results.


Widget

Can't we all ever just get along?

The Music Streamer II is an asyncronous USB device. The Bryston does not specify if it is or not. While at $150, I doubt it is the best that one could do, it does sound very close to my CD player, (which is also not expensive).

But if there isn't much differences in CD players, and my new Music Streamer DAC sounds pretty-much like my CD player, I'm not sure how much a $2000 DAC could add. I'm sure you know your equipment MR. Widget and I'm sure the Bryston is better for a few dozen reasons, but isn't this getting into the same argument as a $20,000 CD player?

Well just for me perhaps. Because the best amp I have is my (integrated) NAD 375BEE. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any digital connections, I wish it had the SPDIF because it's the best amp/receiver I have ever owned (and the most expensive).

Sometimes more money gets you better, sometimes not. The new DAC was a huge improvement for $150, not like speaker cables, or CD players, which "might" be marginal, not that I am saying they are, or know it first hand (disclaimer). On the other hand...I recently bought a Pioneer Receiver with SPDIF input, and that did not sound better than the sound card/NAD. SPDIF with lower end gear did not get me better sound, not even in pre-amp duty to the Adcom 555.

I need some more testing. The DAC sounds very good on Wav or Lossless, but I am not sure how well it is helping the lowly 128kb+ music I have. The sound card might have been a bit more forgiving for that content. But if you have great recordings, it's great. It's a huge improvement for computer based music! Fortunately, hard drives are becoming spacious enough for high bit rate files.

At this point I'd rather spend $2000 on better recordings and put them on my computer and listen to them on my new $150 DAC!