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Thread: Different Definitions of Quality

  1. #46
    Senior Member pathfindermwd's Avatar
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    I'll chime in purely as comic relief...

    My NAD has a plain black aluminum face plate. It also has a volume know with No, I repeat No, indicator whatsoever. I had to put a sticker on it just so I knew where it was at before blowing something up accidentally when turning it on. I sure wish they would have put some more lights, or whatever on this thing! Aside from that, it sounds great! It has gotten better and better as time goes on, this also defies complete explanation.

    I'm not sure what exactly the argument is here. I can tell the difference between the amp/receivers I own. Could i do it blindfolded if you just picked a random one to turn on.....NO. But when I play one, and then hook up the other, I can definitely discern a difference, a big difference! In context of short term memory.

    I recently bought a used Pioneer receiver for the fiber optic input from the computer. It's a damn nice looking receiver (no aluminum faceplate). How did it sound? Terrible! But that's ok, I have a few speakers, they all can't get expensive amps. It only really becomes an issue at higher volume, and in quick comparison.

    What is the beef here? Titanium and Mr. Widget seem open mined. Am I missing something?

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    with or without the meters
    See, that doesn't enter into my buying decision, either. I have mentioned before that I really don't care for the blinding blue LEDs they use, and the meters don't do anything. That's right, they don't move.

    But I didn't buy them so I could show off blinding blue LEDs that I hate or meters that don't move. Or billet faceplates.

  3. #48
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    You know what the most basic requirements are for a "Quality Product"? That it makes it's owner happy, does what it claims and doesn't fall apart in 6 months. In that light there is nothing wrong with an AVR user being just as happy as a Pass Labs user.

    The way I see it you can argue all day about which is better but it really doesn't matter all that much as long as you are happy with what you have. If you think it's the best thing since sliced bread that's great!


    People listen to MP3 at 128Kbt data rates all day long and don't hear what some consider as obvious encoding artifacts. That's just a real life example of the differences that we as individuals have as far as what we consider as acceptable sound vs unacceptable sound. It's a fairly large range and experience coupled with how much importance we place on it influences what we consider as acceptable. So in that vien live and let live. It's a pointless exercise in futility to try to convince another person unless they pose the question and are open to others opinions. Then of course they have to be convinced themselves and make up thier own minds. That's not something that's going to happen on the net. I am not saying not to have the conversation just don't take any of this personally.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  4. #49
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    And the kicker? Although I don't consider my AVR to be the last word in high fidelity music reproduction, and it's only HDMI 1.3, and it's been obsolete for a couple of years, I bought another one identical to it for my bedroom system. I like the performance and functionality, plus the reliability. I like it.

    But it really is a different animal than my 2 ch system.

    One other point before I move on:

    I rarely ever even mention what gear I'm running, and make an effort to never come across as a salesman, or push product, or anything like that. I buy what I like and try to leave it to others to do the same without passing judgement on them for doing so. I might not always be 100% successful, but I never try to do this.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    People listen to MP3 at 128Kbt data rates all day long and don't hear what some consider as obvious encoding artifacts.
    My DAC only goes to 24/192, and even 24/96 files are pretty dang big. The 24/192 files are about 150MB for a 4 minute song, and 24/96 seems to be pretty standard for "hi res" files at only 75MB for the same 4 minutes.

    I thought the 24/96 stuff sounded OK, but it's not even as good as crappy 128? What's considered "good"?

  6. #51
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    I really don't care for the blinding blue LEDs they use, and the meters don't do anything. That's right, they don't move.
    "They don't move..." That's a good thing. When the meter does move it shows you that you are demanding so much power that the amp must go out of a Class A bias.

    And I agree about the "Blue Light Special".


    Widget

  7. #52
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    So are we all agreeing to get along and let bygones be bygones? I can only add that my Al billeted Fosgate Audionics FAA 1000.5 amps have full billeted fronts, as do the FAP T1 and FAP T1+ AND blue LEDs, and I love the way they sound.
    Out.

  8. #53
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    You know what the most basic requirements are for a "Quality Product"? That it makes it's owner happy, does what it claims and doesn't fall apart in 6 months. In that light there is nothing wrong with an AVR user being just as happy as a Pass Labs user.

    The way I see it you can argue all day about which is better but it really doesn't matter all that much as long as you are happy with what you have. If you think it's the best thing since sliced bread that's great!
    Absolutely... but I think this discussion is about whether or not someone with average hearing can hear a difference between properly working audio equipment whether it is a mid priced AVR or a high end piece.

    It isn't about why someone should or should not like something.



    Widget

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post

    The way I see it you can argue all day about which is better but it really doesn't matter all that much as long as you are happy with what you have. If you think it's the best thing since sliced bread that's great!


    Rob
    I'm pretty dang happy.
    Out.

  10. #55
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    I thought the 24/96 stuff sounded OK, but it's not even as good as crappy 128? What's considered "good"?
    That's just the data rate of 128 Kbit/sec the sampling is at 44.1k like a CD. The data rate for a CD is 1.4 Mbit/sec (Mbps). That means a 128K MP3 has only about 10% of the data vs the CD it was encoded from. That's a big difference and when you are talking 24/96khz the data rates are obviously much bigger than a CD.

    Here read this it explains it beter than I can

    http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...s-and-Internet

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  11. #56
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Absolutely... but I think this discussion is about whether or not someone with average hearing can hear a difference between properly working audio equipment whether it is a mid priced AVR or a high end piece.
    Hello Widget

    I understood that which is why I said

    People listen to MP3 at 128Kbt data rates all day long and don't hear what some consider as obvious encoding artifacts. That's just a real life example of the differences that we as individuals have as far as what we consider as acceptable sound vs unacceptable sound. It's a fairly large range and experience coupled with how much importance we place on it influences what we consider as acceptable.
    What's average?? The guy listening the the MP3's or the guy who won't even think about not using a lossless compression codec on his Ipod??

    Me I compromise with my Ipod. I want as much music as I can on there so I use 256K VBR Best Quality encoding. At home I have all my music on CD or vinyl and don't use my Ipod as a source in either system.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    "They don't move..." That's a good thing. When the meter does move it shows you that you are demanding so much power that the amp must go out of a Class A bias.

    Widget
    Yeah, I know that. I just put that in there for the fans of the gear with the big ol' W/VU meters that jump up and down with the music. Just imagine their disappointment after spending all that money on a billet faceplate only to discover that their meters just kind of sit there.

    I have moved my meters, just not much and not often.

    And after Barry's post, I got to thinking. What I need is some blank sheetmetal plates that I can fit on there instead of the aluminum stuff. That way I can get rid of the LEDs, meters, billet, and be able to show my face in public again. There's only about 6 screw holes to drill.

  13. #58
    Senior Member richluvsound's Avatar
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    Even my toaster has a blue LED .... I love anodised ally on all things especially HUGE FECKEN CLASS A power amps ... If this DS - 21 tried a Pass amp on his Tannoy's he'd shut up ! Besides , thats an export Tannoy not made here in the factory .... not like these :

    These came out of Rattlesnake Studios in Battersea. UK studio of Ike and Tina . Photo by the Aussy shit stirrer!
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  14. #59
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    You guys are totally in the wrong. It's not the blue LED nor the thick billet faceplate that makes the amp and defines the upper most level of hifi equipment quality. Nop. It's the HANDLES. You need big fat handles. Bunch of proletarian amateurs

  15. #60
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    Now we're getting somewhere

    I've had a few amps where I was pretty glad there were handles on them. I've got a couple where a pallet jack would have been preferable.

    So maybe weight is the true measure of quality?

    I could have a 30 lb. transformer with a gorgeous 15 lb. faceplate with a blue LED or two 20 lb. transformers with a plain 5 lb. faceplate with three LEDs: red, yellow, green. That doesn't even include the case, heat sinks, wiring, and other innards, which would weigh a lot, too.
    Out.

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