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Thread: Different Definitions of Quality

  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    As you push the amp(s) and the bias current increases pushing the amp(s) from class A into AB the meter will begin deflecting to the right and at about 2 o'clock the amp will begin clipping.

    They don't begin clipping, they begin transitioning from their set bias point. The XA30.5 starts transitioning from Class A bias at about 40 wpc @ 8 ohms, that's when the meter starts moving. It doesn't clip until about 130 wpc @ 8 ohms IIRC. Why I even bother clarifying any of this is beyond me, bored I guess. You could just buy good amps and avoid all this meter nonsense.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    You could just buy good amps and avoid all this meter nonsense.
    That's like buying an aquarium without fish...

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    They don't begin clipping, they begin transitioning from their set bias point. The XA30.5 starts transitioning from Class A bias at about 40 wpc @ 8 ohms, that's when the meter starts moving. It doesn't clip until about 130 wpc @ 8 ohms IIRC. Why I even bother clarifying any of this is beyond me, bored I guess. You could just buy good amps and avoid all this meter nonsense.
    Yes they begin clipping above 100wpc...which coincidentally is when the meter reads about 2 o'clock.


    Widget

  4. #229
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    Rather than a meter, my preference would be an LED driven by a peak/hold circuit, to let you know when the peaks are exceeding the amp maximum output voltage (i.e., turn it down).
    Oppo BDP-95 DCX-2496 RMX-850 Parasound A21 First Watt J2 Dayton RSS390HF-4 MTM Quads of SEAS W18E001 511Bs TAD TD-2002

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Yes they begin clipping above 100wpc...which coincidentally is when the meter reads about 2 o'clock.


    Widget
    It's a sad day when an amp can't do more than 3X its rated output before clipping. And IIRC, mine ran with the meter at about 2 o'clock steady state, then moved to the right from there.

  6. #231
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fpitas View Post
    Rather than a meter, my preference would be an LED driven by a peak/hold circuit, to let you know when the peaks are exceeding the amp maximum output voltage (i.e., turn it down).
    Sure... and that is why most pro amps use LED power indicators. The meters on McIntosh amps and on Pass Labs amps are really just bling... they may not do nothing, but their utility is questionable.

    Now, what the heck do aluminum face plates and meters have to do with quality?


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  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Sure... and that is why most pro amps use LED power indicators. The meters on McIntosh amps and on Pass Labs amps are really just bling... they may not do nothing, but their utility is questionable.

    Now, what the heck do aluminum face plates and meters have to do with quality?


    Widget
    I'll admit I didn't invent the idea; my M-243 mixer has a peak indicator that lights if any stage output gets within 3dB of max output. Nice feature.
    Oppo BDP-95 DCX-2496 RMX-850 Parasound A21 First Watt J2 Dayton RSS390HF-4 MTM Quads of SEAS W18E001 511Bs TAD TD-2002

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    You should consider a nice Crown D-75A instead of that J2. It has clipping LEDs, independent input attenuators, more power, it's smaller, lighter, less expensive, and has that subdued industrial "lab quality" look. Plus it's a good brand.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffW View Post
    You should consider a nice Crown D-75A instead of that J2. It has clipping LEDs, independent input attenuators, more power, it's smaller, lighter, less expensive, and has that subdued industrial "lab quality" look. Plus it's a good brand.
    The J2 sounds just fine, but thank you. I don't want to hurt Mr. Pass's feelings, so I'll suffer with the sub-par brand.
    Oppo BDP-95 DCX-2496 RMX-850 Parasound A21 First Watt J2 Dayton RSS390HF-4 MTM Quads of SEAS W18E001 511Bs TAD TD-2002

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by fpitas View Post
    The J2 sounds just fine
    HHmmm.. Judging an amp on how it sounds instead of how it looks. Now there's a novel idea.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by fpitas View Post
    The J2 sounds just fine, but thank you. I don't want to hurt Mr. Pass's feelings, so I'll suffer with the sub-par brand.
    Agreed.

    The J2 is a completely different design to the XA30.5, it has a differenty sonic signature (no surprise) and is not manufactered at the Pass Labs factory but in Nelson's shed.

    Th First Watt Genre of amps are unique in the approach taken to meet specific needs of the audiophile unlike mass market produced amps that are designed to a broad range of consumer and professional applications.

    The forte of the First Watt is simplicity of design and elegance of execution. The result of which is extracting high measured and subjective performance from very simple circuits.

    I have no commercial affiliation to First Watt or Pass Labs but when you weigh up the above and fact that these amps are still manufactured / assembled in the USA then First Watt and Pass Labs respresent a unique definition of quality.

    In an economy where retail is dead and many business are struggling to stay afloat you need to ask Kent English of Pass Labs why is the business doing so well when many of their direct competitors have not survived?

    Another interesting story of quality is the EAR brand by Tim de Paravicini.
    http://www.ear-yoshino.com/tim_bio.php?n=2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA7VHgVaZro

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Agreed.

    The J2 is a completely different design to the XA30.5,
    I never meant to compare the two, I think Widget brought up the XA30.5, I just continued to use that as an example.

    it has a differenty sonic signature (no surprise)
    I think it would come as a big surprise to many here. Even "Pass Labs" amps get lumped together because of the unfortunate circumstance of them sharing a common faceplate design, but all Pass Labs amps don't sound the same. Doesn't really matter since they all look the same, and we go by looks instead of sound.

    and is not manufactered at the Pass Labs factory but in Nelson's shed.
    I still say they look very similar, except for the "odd protrusions" and meter. Maybe Nelson should have contracted out the case design so people wouldn't associate the two.

    The First Watt Genre of amps are unique in the approach taken to meet specific needs of the audiophile unlike mass market produced amps that are designed to a broad range of consumer and professional applications.

    The forte of the First Watt is simplicity of design and elegance of execution. The result of which is extracting high measured and subjective performance from very simple circuits.
    They certainly don't get slagged on like the Pass Labs line, probably because they look simpler.

    I have no commercial affiliation to First Watt or Pass Labs but when you weigh up the above and fact that these amps are still manufactured / assembled in the USA then First Watt and Pass Labs respresent a unique definition of quality.
    And that definition seems to be what inspired this multi page rant against them.

    In an economy where retail is dead and many business are struggling to stay afloat you need to ask Kent English of Pass Labs why is the business doing so well when many of their direct competitors have not survived?
    They bought aluminum futures low?

    ETA: Happy Birthday!
    Last edited by JeffW; 09-07-2012 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Happy Birthday, Ian!

  13. #238
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    Uh-huh.
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    Out.

  14. #239
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    One more interesting feature of First Watt products. Except for a brief period now past, when I think it was a son and a nephew helping out, all were/are hand soldered and assembled solely by Nelson himself. I am listening to two of his components right now. I have peeked inside one of them, and he is a terrific solderer.

    The payoff is that between the design and the construction, none has ever failed in the field. Not one in over a decade. You get you money's worth.

    It feels like having a Ducati assembled by Dr T.

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista47 View Post
    One more interesting feature of FirstWatt products. Except for a brief period now past, when I think it was a son and a nephew helping out, all were/are hand soldered and assembled solely by Nelson himself. I am listening to two of his components right now. I have peeked inside one of them, and he is a terrific solderer.

    The payoff is that between the design and the construction, none has ever failed in the field. Not one in over a decade. You get you money's worth.

    It feels like having a Ducati assembled by Dr T.

    Clark
    Everything you say about First Watt is true, and certainly helped seal the deal. The real reason I bought the J2 though is I'm a sucker for JFETs. I've been designing with them for years, and even got a job designing low-noise electronic instrumentation because I knew about them. And these are silicon carbide JFETs; the geek in me couldn't resist. Luckily, they sound great
    Oppo BDP-95 DCX-2496 RMX-850 Parasound A21 First Watt J2 Dayton RSS390HF-4 MTM Quads of SEAS W18E001 511Bs TAD TD-2002

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