Different Definitions of Quality

[4313B]

I just bought a pair of Parasound Halo JC-1 amps. California designed and serviced but built in Taiwan. These amps are damned close to Pass Labs in performance at a much friendlier price point, but they are not cheap China prices either... at $9K a pair for 400 watt mono blocks. Basically quality costs, regardless of who is doing it.

No way! I'm thoroughly familiar with various pay scales. And Taiwan isn't MLC. If something is being built in MLC and it's commanding a premium price that's because some guy at the top is raking in some serious cash, not because a bunch of guys and gals at the bottom are making any salary of substance. I can definitely find a factory in MLC that can crank out those Halos at a fraction of the cost. You might get some counterfeit electronic components in the process though. It is prudent to keep tabs on the suppliers of the suppliers.

Have you compared those $9K Halo mono blocks with those $2K Emo mono blocks?

Anyway, all this is supposed to be funny. I think it's funny.

[pos]

Widget, have you had a chance to listen to the new hypex ncore amps?

[Mr. Widget]

Widget, have you had a chance to listen to the new hypex ncore amps?

No.

I'm sure they won't warm up the listening space in winter like the Halos will.


Widget

[Odd]

No way! I'm thoroughly familiar with various pay scales. And Taiwan isn't MLC. If something is being built in MLC and it's commanding a premium price that's because some guy at the top is raking in some serious cash, not because a bunch of guys and gals at the bottom are making any salary of substance. I can definitely find a factory in MLC that can crank out those Halos at a fraction of the cost. You might get some counterfeit electronic components in the process though. It is prudent to keep tabs on the suppliers of the suppliers.

Anyway, all this is supposed to be funny. I think it's funny.

Yes, it's fun for those watching inside the products and have an understanding of the components used, and the price they cost. For two or ten, they cost a bit. Buy 10000 and the cost is not much.
For amplifiers, the major cost is labor.

An Honor to Nelson Pass for all the information he shares with DIY's

[fpitas]

What an odd thread. No one said the obvious (well, to me), which is that the whole discussion is apples and oranges. Room correction can't fix the faults of a bad amp (phase intermodulation with amplitude changes, crossover distortion etc.), and the best amp can't do room correction. Each is necessary to fix specific problems.

And for the record, the First Watt front plate is just that, a simple 1/2" thick piece of rolled aluminum stock like you'd get from McMaster-Carr. No billet. No idea why someone would think it looks like a Pass Labs amp.

[JeffW]

Rolled, billet, who gives a crap. The front plate on the Pass amps is just a sheet of aluminum, too, but then they bolt some machined pieces onto that. The more important question is why don't they used stamped sheet metal like good amps.

I think the main reason somebody would say the First Watt (J2, for instance) looks like a Pass amp is because aside from no meter and absent the machined handles, it looks pretty much just like a Pass amp. The screw holes on the J2 front are the same ones that the handles bolt onto the Pass. Same heatsinks. Same top cover. Pull the handles off the Pass and it'd be the same except for the meter (that doesn't actually do anything, anyway).

[fpitas]

Rolled, billet, who gives a crap. The front plate on the Pass amps is just a sheet of aluminum, too, but then they bolt some machined pieces onto that. The more important question is why don't they used stamped sheet metal like good amps.

I think the main reason somebody would say the First Watt (J2, for instance) looks like a Pass amp is because aside from no meter and absent the machined handles, it looks pretty much just like a Pass amp. The screw holes on the J2 front are the same ones that the handles bolt onto the Pass. Same heatsinks. Same top cover.

Looks quite different to me. I was looking at Pass Lab amps and realized I don't like the meter or the odd protrusions. To me the J2 just looks like lab equipment, which is fine with me. To test that, I set it on a bench in the lab at work and no one batted an eye.

[4313B]

looks like lab equipment, which is fine with me. To test that, I set it on a bench in the lab at work and no one batted an eye.

I went ahead and fixed it so people would notice. I also added another 449 of those watt things.

[JeffW]

Looks quite different to me. I was looking at Pass Lab amps and realized I don't like the meter or the odd protrusions. To me the J2 just looks like lab equipment, which is fine with me. To test that, I set it on a bench in the lab at work and no one batted an eye.

That's why I said it looked just like it " aside from no meter and absent the machined handles (odd protrusions)". Take the handles (odd protrusions) off the Pass, slap some duct tape over the meter (that doesn't do anything, anyway), and Bob's your uncle.

[Mr. Widget]

What an odd thread. No one said the obvious (well, to me), which is that the whole discussion is apples and oranges. Room correction can't fix the faults of a bad amp (phase intermodulation with amplitude changes, crossover distortion etc.), and the best amp can't do room correction. Each is necessary to fix specific problems.

I get your point, but at the end of the day... we buy equipment to satisfy our quest for audio nirvana. Yes, some buy bling and others feed their egos, but since normal people don't differentiate between the chrome and blue LEDs of a large boom box and a piece of high end audio gear, if you aren't buying this stuff to please yourself you are just wasting your money anyway.

In the quest for sonic bliss some will tolerate room influenced distortions focusing on subtleties of superb speakers and electronics while others are more or less oblivious to the rather harsh canned sound that most DSP based systems offer up and prefer their "corrected" sound. These are apples and oranges... true. That said, we can have preferences between apples and oranges too.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

That's why I said it looked just like it " aside from no meter and absent the machined handles (odd protrusions)". Take the handles (odd protrusions) off the Pass, slap some duct tape over the meter (that doesn't do anything, anyway), and Bob's your uncle.

I agree the styling is a bit over the top, but the meter does do something... it shows you the state of the amplifier's output biasing. As you push the amp(s) and the bias current increases pushing the amp(s) from class A into AB the meter will begin deflecting to the right and at about 2 o'clock the amp will begin clipping. That said, with the larger Pass amps where you will never really push them, the meter is as useless as the watt meters on the larger McIntosh amps...


Widget

[Guido]

I agree the styling is a bit over the top, but the meter does do something... it shows you the state of the amplifier's output biasing. As you push the amp(s) and the bias current increases pushing the amp(s) from class A into AB the meter will begin deflecting to the right and at about 2 o'clock the amp will begin clipping. That said, with the larger Pass amps where you will never really push them, the meter is as useless as the watt meters on the larger McIntosh amps...
Widget

Maybe it was like this in the older X series amps. Nowadays in the X.5 and XA.5 amps it's different.
It just measures the Voltage difference between PS board (- Ref) and Bias-Board (Main-Board) with a 20mA Meter. It is adjusted to zero with a small pot.
The meter starts flouncing at higher currents as then there is a very very small Voltage difference between the boards.

Open one of your demo amps follow the pcb tracks and you see easily.

Whatever it doesn't do anything

[fpitas]

I get your point, but at the end of the day... we buy equipment to satisfy our quest for audio nirvana. Yes, some buy bling and others feed their egos, but since normal people don't differentiate between the chrome and blue LEDs of a large boom box and a piece of high end audio gear, if you aren't buying this stuff to please yourself you are just wasting your money anyway. In the quest for sonic bliss some will tolerate room influenced distortions focusing on subtleties of superb speakers and electronics while others are more or less oblivious to the rather harsh canned sound that most DSP based systems offer up and prefer their "corrected" sound. These are apples and oranges... true. That said, we can have preferences between apples and oranges too. Widget

It wasn't my intention to pick on anybody, just to note that two different problems are being addressed. Most rooms do need some attention; I hung drapes around my listening room to combat the excess reverberance and dampen reflections, which helped a lot. Maybe DSP room correction would help too, but I haven't tried it. Either way, any sonic imperfections of the amps is a separate problem.

Edit: Although, looking at some previous posts, people have already noted these are different problems. Never mind me...

[Mr. Widget]

It wasn't my intention to pick on anybody.... Never mind me...

Not at all... you made a very good point however I guess I wasn't clear in my response.

I agree that the two subjects are different, my point is that while they are different they do both affect the sound and that an individual may be more sensitive to one form of quality over the other.

Here is an example. In my 2 channel listening room the bass response is a bit uneven and depending on where you sit it has more or less bloom. A DSP could correct this and that would be a good thing. That said, I have yet to use one that is transparent enough that the rest of the spectrum wouldn't be compromised.

In a surround sound system with a video source, the distractions of the video and of the additional audio channels makes the importance of uber high end sound significantly less important. In this type of system, I generally prefer a bit of DSP correction.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Maybe it was like this in the older X series amps. Nowadays in the X.5 and XA.5 amps it's different.
It just measures the Voltage difference between PS board (- Ref) and Bias-Board (Main-Board) with a 20mA Meter. It is adjusted to zero with a small pot.
The meter starts flouncing at higher currents as then there is a very very small Voltage difference between the boards.

Open one of your demo amps follow the pcb tracks and you see easily.

Whatever it doesn't do anything

My experience with Pass Labs amps is limited to living with an XA30.5 for a few months. I never looked inside and wouldn't know what to look for if I had. I was told by the folks at Pass, that this is what the meter showed. I have no reason to doubt them. Certainly as the output level increased, the meter began deflecting and after it reached about 2 o'clock the sound was slightly strained.

If you are certain about your understanding of the circuit, then I guess they are liars or don't know what they are doing... I find both of these possibilities unlikely. Perhaps there is a third option.


Widget