Different Definitions of Quality

[Allanvh5150]

Perhaps, but the quality of the parts used, the care in device matching, the layout of the boards, etc... these all affect the final sound of a piece of gear. Perreaux, didn't simply wire up a pile of Mosfets and ship a successful product.


Widget

Pretty much, it was all marketing. There were 5 other manufacturers here in the '80's. There marketing was not at all good and they went by the by many years ago. They all used the same circuit and all of their specs were remarkably similar. These amps still come up second hand and they all perform great. The quality of parts in the Perreaux's were not at all brilliant and indeed, most of the resistors used were 5% carbon comp. However, the product was and still is, hugely successful.

Allan.

[Allanvh5150]

Are there any really good AV amps?

Yup, Lots of em. But it depends on what level of "really good" you are talking of.

Allan.

[cooky1257]

Yup, Lots of em. But it depends on what level of "really good" you are talking of.

Allan.

[Fort Knox]

I was expecting more thoughts or debate on this. Not quite as many as in the "high cost wire and cord" thread, but at least a couple more.

Is technology just not this far along yet?

Brett

I don't watch movies but ...Concert music ..off "You tube.. for that I use a Gemini Circle Surround 5 ch preamp w/Titanium Sound Blaster card
and rack mt Peavey tube amps w/PM700 Carver Pro sub amp

[Rolf]

Perhaps, but the quality of the parts used, the care in device matching, the layout of the boards, etc... these all affect the final sound of a piece of gear. Perreaux, didn't simply wire up a pile of Mosfets and ship a successful product.


Widget

Hi Widget . I own 3 Perreaux products. Pre Amp - SM6MK2 and 2 350's. All from the PRISMA series. Before that I had a SM2 Pre Amp and a 2150B. Excellent products all, but from the SM2 and 2150B up to what I now have, a great improvement. The 350's is connected so left channel is driving the woofer, right channel is driving the rest. (on the left speaker), and the other 350 is doing the same on the right channel. So I got 700W a channel, and the 4343B's is very comfortable with this. Of course you have to be careful regarding the volume, as that amount of power can kill.

They use MosFet's, and is the closest thing I have heard to the tube sound, but with a much better control of the woofer.

Just my opinion.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I know of quite a few Mosfet output stage amplifiers that were build using the generic amplifier circuit taken from the Hitachi data book. The basic circuit had no protection whatsoever appart from a zener diode to stop the Fets from being overdriven. The schematic had 5 transistors in the driver stage and that was it. A small assortment of resistors and capacitors were also present. These amplifiers sounded fantastic and the circuit is still being used today. All of the Perreaux amplifiers in the '80's used this circuit and it was no secret that they had used the circuit from the data book. Little to no design work from Perreaux yielded a great amplifier that is still very highly regarded today.

Allan.

I guess it depend on what you mean by good and that is based on experiences.

My point is i used to think a Phase Linear 700B sounded good and a Phase Linear 400 was a bit better.

The Quad 405 was neither good nor bad. I recall David Grownow of Zepher Products in Melb showing me the 1st Perreaux power amplifier that he had imported in the early 80's.

I then experienced class A bi polar and class A mosfet amplifiers and I soon realised this type of amplifier is an order of magnitude better than other classes of audio amplifiers.

The draw back is cost, heat and size. The difference is not unlike comparing Solen Fast caps in a non charge coupled crossover to a charge coupled crossover.

Most conventional class A / B mosfet power amps have a characteristicl warmth and brilliance to the sound that is easy to live with but I would not go so far as to say they are entirely accurate.
.
Those that use J fet front ends are superior and those that have highly based output stages are excellent.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Another quality question.

Given the apparent unquestionable superiority of the Speakon connector why is it not used in the current Crop of AV amplifiers?

[Robh3606]

A stereo integrated amp with room equalization

http://www.stereophile.com/content/h...specifications

Rob

[Rolf]

I guess it depend on what you mean by good and that is based on experiences.

My point is i used to think a Phase Linear 700B sounded good and a Phase Linear 400 was a bit better.

The Quad 405 was neither good nor bad. I recall David Grownow of Zepher Products in Melb showing me the 1st Perreaux power amplifier that he had imported in the early 80's.

I then experienced class A bi polar and class A mosfet amplifiers and I soon realised this type of amplifier is an order of magnitude better than other classes of audio amplifiers.

The draw back is cost, heat and size. The difference is not unlike comparing Solen Fast caps in a non charge coupled crossover to a charge coupled crossover.

Most conventional class A / B mosfet power amps have a characteristicl warmth and brilliance to the sound that is easy to live with but I would not go so far as to say they are entirely accurate.
.
Those that use J fet front ends are superior and those that have highly based output stages are excellent.

You are not far from the truth my friend. My first Perreaux (SM2 + 2150B) was made in the early 80's. I think I got them via Denmark around 81 or 82.

[brett_s]

That stereophile article is one of the things that got me thinking about this whole mess in the first place. Integrated amp with room correction. I'm not saying I believe the article, it just got me thinking about it. Again, on paper it looks like a good idea, but I have no clue about reality.

Brett

[Mr. Widget]

Pretty much, it was all marketing.

That's always a possibility... a buddy of mine and I were wondering how a big company like Harman could be so bad at it when there are so many average products that sell so well due at least in part to superior marketing. I have no personal experience with Perreaux gear and only know of it by reputation. I'll take your word for it that at least part of the explanation for their success is due to superior marketing.

Yup, Lots of em. But it depends on what level of "really good" you are talking of.

Amps perhaps... ATI for example makes several very good AV oriented amps... the processors tend to be the problem. They are simply asked to do to much, it is very difficult to build them at anything approaching a reasonable price point... and then there is the fact they are meant to be used in conjunction with video. As soon as you have a video image flashing before your eyes, the brain is swamped with processing demands and can't really distinguish between good and great audio.

Those that use J fet front ends are superior and those that have highly based output stages are excellent.

That would be a description of a Hafler 9505 and I would agree with you. A few years ago I tried one in a positively stupid application. I used one to power a TAD TD4003 in a bi-amped setup... I had a second one on the woofer, but on the HF requiring at most a few hundred milliwatts I was not at all impressed. The amp was grainy and hard sounding. I wrote it off as showing it's true colors under the harsh light of a beryllium microscope. I parked the amp in storage and happily went with a ~20 watt SET amp on the HF. Recently when a forum member offered to buy one of my Haflers (still in storage) I dragged one out and put it into service full frequency on my 1400 Arrays... in this far more appropriate application where the amp is asked to produce several watts into the dozens, the damned thing sounds really, really, good. Perhaps not as good as a Class A amp from Mr. Pass, but certainly very enjoyable.

Another quality question.

Given the apparent unquestionable superiority of the Speakon connector why is it not used in the current Crop of AV amplifiers?

Two simple reasons. First is real estate. Speakons are huge and on the back of a seven channel AVR they'd never fit and even on an amp with balanced and RCA inputs, selectors for configuring inputs and outputs, bridging etc... there often simply isn't the room. The other more important reason that they aren't offered is that they aren't an industry standard in the domestic side of the biz. If someone were to offer them the purchaser would have to terminate all of his own cables, and they are never on the speaker end anyway so what would the point be?


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

I'm not saying I believe the article, it just got me thinking about it. Again, on paper it looks like a good idea, but I have no clue about reality.

I don't remember the review... I guess I wasn't particularly interested, but I doubt they'd lie...the opinions may not agree with someone else's, but the basic statements are factual I'm sure.


Widget

Edit: I just clicked on Rob's link... "Oh that piece." I do remember seeing the review and being surprised that Harman would even attempt to enter such a narrow market space. It isn't a bad idea, and it might even be a good piece, but I'd be surprised if it was good enough to satisfy most two channel folks. I expect they'll be available at famous Harman blow out prices via their website in the next year or so... and when they do I'll bet a few of our members will pick them up. The feedback will be interesting.

[4313B]

I don't remember the review... I guess I wasn't particularly interested, but I doubt they'd lie...the opinions may not agree with someone else's, but the basic statements are factual I'm sure.


Widget

Edit: I just clicked on Rob's link... "Oh that piece." I do remember seeing the review and being surprised that Harman would even attempt to enter such a narrow market space. It isn't a bad idea, and it might even be a good piece, but I'd be surprised if it was good enough to satisfy most two channel folks. I expect they'll be available at famous Harman blow out prices via their website in the next year or so... and when they do I'll bet a few of our members will pick them up. The feedback will be interesting.

I'd be curious as to what went on during new product discussions to bring about such a unit.

As for it being good enough to satisfy most two channel folks... I don't think this beast is very portable and that is the overwhelmingly vast majority of two channel folks.

It looks like H/K has already reduced the price some $600 on these.

[hjames]

Well, if its got the reliability factor of my TOTL HK AVR-7300 (that worthless POS),
discounting it from the $2599 MSRP by just $600 isn't anywhere NEAR cheap enough.
That puppy needs to be in the $1200 range if its only going to last 3 years ...

I'd be curious as to what went on during new product discussions to bring about such a unit.

As for it being good enough to satisfy most two channel folks...
I don't think this beast is very portable and that is the overwhelmingly vast majority of two channel folks.

It looks like H/K has already reduced the price some $600 on these.

[4313B]

Well, if its got the reliability factor of my TOTL HK AVR-7300 (that worthless POS), discounting it from the $2599 MSRP by just $600 isn't anywhere NEAR cheap enough.That puppy needs to be in the $1200 range if its only going to last 3 years ...

Yep. H/K replaced my AVR 7000 TWICE. The second time I received an AVR 7200 instead. And that one I had to crack open immediately and remove a long piece of unused solder before I turned it on for the first time.

When mine blows up I'm going all separates again.

But this is nothing new. Back in the 70's and 80's H/K had some real PITA units and they had some real nice sounding units.

Look at the Citation 22. Plenty of people blew the hell out of theirs and yet mine are still going strong over twenty years later. All one has to do is refrain from licking the output jacks and trim the bias every so often. Oh, and not crack the main board when shipping them. H/K kind of forgot to put that little hard rubber spacer between the bottom of the board and the chassis on some of them.