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Thread: AR-XB Turntable

  1. #16
    Senior Member herki the cat's Avatar
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    50 Year Old Weathers Turntable

    Quote Originally Posted by Audiobeer View Post
    I'm wondering what kind of work would be needed on a NOS turntable sitting in it's original box for almost 50 years?
    My old 1950's Weathers Turntable in original condition still works just fine.

    For those offered by Surplussales Inc., the worst possible could be perhaps, the rubber parts aka, the platter mat which you can replace with a Cork Sheet from Pep Boys, the little rubber capstan you can carve out of a soft Rubber Eraser (Been There); the Weathers Rubber Tone Arm Mounting Base "hardening," with age actually is an asset. Consider cleaning and lubricating the platter shaft and the tone arm mounting base shaft and just a small drop of sewing machine oil in the bearings of the twoCompass Technical Inc., 33 RPM & 45 RPM motors costing $15.00 each. What! you are still waiting, Go for it! herki[QUOTE/]

  2. #17
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Herki, thanks for all the tech notes, and for the memories ...
    Now I've just got to pull Em's AR-XB out of the attic - and make room for it somewhere!
    (Probably on the L200plus system with the carver receiver...)
    ... tho its also sounding like I want to find a tube amp for that system ...!
    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Audiobeer View Post
    I'm still hoping Emma will want to sell Hers. If not what do you folks think is the best bang for the buck for a new plug and play under $500?
    REGA RP1, $445 complete with Ortofon OM5e installed and aligned. Steve Daniels/Sound Org, the US Distributor, spent a number of years with Linn.

  4. #19
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    I had never paid much attention to Emma's AR turntable in the past because I remember a friend in college had an AR-XA that bounced and skipped on anything we played on it ... bad conduction from the floor or whatever!

    I didn't realize Emma's was a different model ...
    So, before breakfast, I went into the attic and pulled it down.

    Amazingly, the dust cover is clean and uncracked!
    of course, it could use some cleaning, and the cartridge is lacking a stylus(!)

    Could also use a mat on the platter.
    Think I have an old heavy rubber audiophile thing somewhere that I didn't use with my Denon ...
    Yep, found it! a snug fit ...

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    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

  5. #20
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    More pics - That heavy rubber platter mat weighed down the suspension too much - so based on a tip from Herki, I cut a new mat from some sheet cork I had around. It should flatten down once I put some vinyl on it. And a hockey puck clamp! Now I need to get a cartridge for it - go a 681EEE Stanton in my Denon downstairs, but don't want to pull it for testing ... Got pieces of 2 Audiotechnica carts of ancient vintage, but neither of them has a stylus ...

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    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

  6. #21
    Senior Member herki the cat's Avatar
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    AR-XA / AR-XB bouncing and skipping

    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    I had never paid much attention to Emma's AR turntable in the past because I remember a friend in college had an AR-XA that bounced and skipped on anything we played on it ... bad conduction from the floor or whatever!
    I didn't realize Emma's was a different model ... So, before breakfast, I went into the attic and pulled it down.[ATTACH]53825
    Revised 6:00:am 11/28/11

    Supporting the platter bearing and the tone arm mounting base__ my AR-XA has a two inch wide "T" sub chassis with an very stiff coil spring at each extremity of the "T" plus an aged, shrunken out of shape, chunk of foam for damping in each coil spring in vertical motion.

    This suspension system does nothing to prevent this 10 pound assembly from rocking violently out of control in the horizontal plane and vertical direction at a rate, approx' (10) HZ per second. A good high-end design will feature a rate of (1 to 3) Hz per second traditionally addressed with some form of viscus damping. Otherwise, these vertical & horizontal modes will seriously aggravate the identical natural resonance modes of the undamped AR tone arm.

    Worse that, the spring at the end of the long section of the "T" _ where the tone arm mounting is located_ has the same spring compliance as each of the two springs directly under the much heavier platter assembly. All springs should have identical resonant frequency below (1 to 2) Hz to provide damping in vertical motion. This equality is achieved using springs of compliance yielding identical vertical deflection of each spring. This mean equal supported mass and loaded deflection at each spring.

    One other serious problem exists in the AR-AX __ "the drive motor is located on the cabinet top panel"
    allowing horizontal motion of the platter to and from the motor capstan. The motor should be mounted on the sub chassis. This tiny motor only consumes 1.5 watt!

    The best solution is to fasten the sub chassis with little bolts directly to the AR cabinet top panel and adding, internally to the cabinet, equalizing weights located so the entire assembly has identical weight at each corner. This design modification can executed by placing additional incremental weights externally at each corner which can be transfered internally at each corner of the cabinet.

    You should then attach a 20 pound marble slab under the cabinet supported by four highly damped identical springs of_ extreme stiffness in the horizontal plane located in a triangular configuration __ to provide a well damped vertical resonance of some (2 or 3) HZ well separated from the natural typical (10 t0 16) Hz resonance of the tone arm. There are many low cost tiny "dash pot" vertical damping devices similar to the shock mounts in automobiles available in this industry.

    The famous "Oracle" Canadian Turntable has three "spring" towers supporting their sub chassis. The current "Oracle" now features three viscous piston damping devices with awesome results. herki[quote]
    Last edited by herki the cat; 11-28-2011 at 04:23 AM. Reason: NATHA, REIN!

  7. #22
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Found an Osawa MP-15 cartridge of indeterminate origin - set it for 3/4 gram downforce and played a bit of an old Passport album ... bounced like the dickens when I walked around the room ... Cheapo cart probably needs more downforce than that, but still - just like the AR-XA my friend Joe had back in the early 70s! No doubt it needs the marble base and some viscous feet!
    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

  8. #23
    Senior Member herki the cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    ... bounced like the dickens when I walked around the room ... just like the AR-XA my friend Joe had back in the early 70s! No doubt it needs the marble base and some viscous feet!
    It is a small world __ I find that except for an improved motor on-off switch switch and a push pull cable tone arm lifter control on your AR-XB, my AR-XA appears to be identical to your AR- XB__ top & bottom. Two quickie demo items i can suggest:

    #1) Position the AR-XB carefully on its side after removing the entire platter Assembly & securing the tone arm to its anchor. Have Emma hold the cabinet steady while you slide a swatch of foam 1/4 to 1/2 inch thick, between the entire "T" sub chassis, and underside of the cabinet top. Make the foam slab thick enough to provide vertical motion damping, and especially lateral motion damping of the sub chassis.

    # 2) Place the AR-XB on a two to three inch thick chunk of foam available from stores like Joe Ann, and temporarily, load ten to twenty pounds of books etc in a box on top the cover to simulate the marble base mass, being carefull to distribute the books to produce uniform thickness of of the foam compression under each corner of the AR. You will be amazed at this () Since this is just an temporary affair, i like to use the removable mass-box to facilitate setting the records to play.Ultimately, some form of laterally un-yielding constraint sufficiently compliant in a small tangential vertical mode like four pieces of nylon or thin guitar string attached between four internal sides of the cabinet and the "T" sub chassis may stabilize the lateral motion of the sub chassis. herki[quote/]

  9. #24
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Sharing Herki's reference as a click-able link!

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post285922
    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

  10. #25
    Senior Member Don C's Avatar
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    If you're having trouble with skipping when walking in your listening room, you should try damping the suspension springs with foam rubber. You remove the spring adjuster and wrap foam rubber around the shaft, and push it up into the center of the spring. This helps a lot. But with joist suspended wood floors, a regular turntable without the spring suspension works better. These suspended tables are better for concrete floors.

  11. #26
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don C View Post
    If you're having trouble with skipping when walking in your listening room, you should try damping the suspension springs with foam rubber. You remove the spring adjuster and wrap foam rubber around the shaft, and push it up into the center of the spring. This helps a lot. But with joist suspended wood floors, a regular turntable without the spring suspension works better. These suspended tables are better for concrete floors.
    Thanks Don!

    I've got it up on the shelf for the week while work intrudes (grin) ...
    and I have a Shure M97xE cartridge on order at Amazon just in case that funky Osawa MP-15 is part of the problem ...


    I do plan to put some foam feet under the base and cushion it for now,
    but I think damping the springs/T-bar with foam like you and Herki have
    recommended is the long term solution for use in that room.

    I don't really want to put a wall-mount in that room (probably the right answer for that room).
    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

  12. #27
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Slipped some shaved foam blocks under the corners of the TT cabinet as an experiment -
    walked around a bit - tho it looks cheesy, the concept does seem to be helping.

    If I do a nice version of this it may play in prime time here - SAF^.

    Wrapped in black velvet, maybe I could sell them as the next Maplethorpe Audio product ...
    could my retirement funds be that close ...?

    Thanks for the ideas everyone!

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    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

  13. #28
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hjames View Post
    Slipped some shaved foam blocks under the corners of the TT cabinet as an experiment -
    walked around a bit - tho it looks cheesy, the concept does seem to be helping.

    Wrapped in black velvet, maybe I could sell them as the next Maplethorpe Audio product ...
    could my retirement funds be that close ...?



    Widget

  14. #29
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    The AR turntable is very nice for the money--though I have no idea what they are selling for now. I ran across several of them back in the day and I believe every one, had the split table. The outer, heavy ring should be removed when moving the table around at all, and certainly for shipping. It really pounds that light spring suspension when being moved. Yes, they were a problem on springy floors; I learned to walk past them without dislodging the stylus, but was less successful training roommates. The elegant simplicity of these tables, both visually and mechanically--at a marvelously low price point--made them a real winner in my book. I sold my last one to use a Philips. I can't remember why. The Philips might have had arm lift. Were it not for my Thorens 125 MkII, I'd be looking for one, since my idea about vinyl is basic unobtrusive functionality. One day in the late sixties or early seventies I picked up a kid hitchhiking in Marin county. During the conversation it developed that he was on his way down to the post office to pick up his new AR turntable he'd ordered from some mail order house. He was pretty excited, pleased and joyful about it. That was hi fi for me, the excitement of anticipating hearing the music better. Still goes on, I guess.

  15. #30
    Heather [Senorita member] hjames's Avatar
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    Well, I'm not likely to re-engineer the T-bar sub-chassis to use 3 Konis instead of the coil springs it has now ...
    and I'm not likely to rebuild the whole thing with the suspension locked to the top surface and put isolastic suspension for the feet.

    Tho I do like the idea of the rubber band flotation platform,
    in truth I already have a good TT in the other system, a Denon DP-45F.

    Whatever it needs - it'll keep for the next week or so 'til I have a chance to play further.

    I can certainly carve some new foam pyramids to go into the springs and replace the old shrunken dried foams of yore ...

    I have considered sliding a (trimmed) marble floor tile into the bottom of the cabinet just above the sliding lower cover.
    That would add some good mass to the cabinet!
    2ch - Oppo981, JoLida502, JBL L200+, KEF 105.4
    HT7- XDA-2, BDP93, 4b NRB, B&K 5ch amp, Vandy 3A, 2Ce, VCC1, TF600 & JBL 4641

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