Looks like "tom1040" has found a subject that concerns many.
Have many of those who have experience with cables in your home HI FI seen all the wiring in a recording studio? There may be hundreds of meters of cable with not very good quality. All sound has passed through this before you get it home in the living room.
May be something to think about.
Originally Posted by Odd
Looks like "tom1040" has found a subject that concerns many.
Have many of those who have experience with cables in your home HI FI seen all the wiring in a recording studio? There may be hundreds of meters of cable with not very good quality. All sound has passed through this before you get it home in the living room.
May be something to think about.
As I see it, that is another issue. With my system, I can listen to great recordings all day. However, some recordings (from the studio) do not past muster with the JBL 1400 Arrays. For those, I may switch over to the S/2600 speakers(or just not play them at all).
I guess I would blame the person who recorded it to begin with.......but what do I know.
Thanks for the insights and links provided here. It is a learning curve for me and I appreciate the advice on this board.
I think and hope Odd has supplied the final nail !
Check out this recording studio nearby:
http://www.c-ville.com/index.php?cat...42105073317064
The Monkeyclaus recording engineer, Abel Okugawa, leans back in his chair, barefoot, staring at the controls in front of him. The drummer sweats. The singer bends at the waist, his head tremoring slightly. What else attracts bands to this place? “The sound,” Peter says.
Which gets us to the matter of wire. Peter takes me into a side room and rifles through bins, pulling out bits of wire from the 1930s and ’40s, wire wrapped in silk, in wax, wire hand-braided from copper. Each one has a different sound, a different way of shaping and transmitting noise, and he likes to splice and plug in those different wires to see what new effects they will give.
". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers
You're asking the wrong question, though. The real reason is why should one consider "high cost speaker wire and power cords?"
There is a legitimate answer: because they're audio jewelry/tribal signifiers, and some people like the way they look.
That's the same reason one might wear a Patek Phillipe or Jaeger LeCoultre watch on the wrist, even though those fine machines are massively inferior at telling time to the iPhone in the person's hip pocket. Or why one might prefer to wear JM Weston 180 penny loafers instead of common weejuns. They are beautifully-crafted objects, and provide signals to others about one's status and preferences.
And there is a simply delusional answer: they "sound" better. That delusion is compounded because the people spouting it often have very poorly optimized systems, with speakers that don't have constant directivity in the midrange and no pressure sources in random locations around the room to smooth out response in the modal region. So in truth their systems lack the resolution needed to make fine-grained determinations of sonic differences, anyway.
That is true only in very narrow and specific circumstances. One is simply that the cable is poorly specified for the application, i.e. running 50' of 28AWG wire to speakers with 2Ω impedance minima. The other is that the wire itself is intentionally designed to be a low-fidelity device, i.e. a nonadjustable signal-colorer rather than just a wire (output ≠ input). Such wires are, however, a minimal part of the audio wire industry's output.
The obvious question is, can you hear a difference, when you don't know what wires are in use? Most people who spout delusions about wires are afraid to take that simple test.
I disagree. Studios I've seen use wire of very good quality. Good conductors of adequate size for the job, solid termination with strain relief, appropriate shielding for the application, etc.
I'm reminded of a story about the late Formula-1 world champion Graham Hill. At one race, he was convinced that the springs on his Lotus were insufficiently stiff. The pit crew replaced them with progressively stiffer springs, but Hill wasn't satisfied. So Lotus boss Colin Chapman took a middle-stiffness spring, ordered it to be painted a different color (blue to red, or maybe the opposite), and told Hill that they were a brand new spring from some supplier, and the stiffest thing currently available. Hill took a lap and pronounced them perfect.
The point is, even the best can be misled by their senses. That box of wires is probably more to add to the mystique of the place than for any actual sonic issue.
You are welcome to your beliefs but they are not facts.
Your anecdote is amusing but it's irrelevant.
I'm not alone in hearing the dramatic difference cables make in my system. I know my speakers are not perfect like all the other speakers but maybe that's why the wires make such a difference.
8 pages... this subject never fails to ignite passions
My avatar: 4520 loaded with 2225H on E140 frames,
1x 2202H on custom front loaded horn, 2x 2426 on 2370.
8 pages... this subject never fails to ignite passions
Well, it can be said that passion is essential for our hobby...
...except for those of us who insist we must be objective, rational, scientific...
...but then many of us seem to be rather passionate about being dispassionate...
...while others of us are intent on being logical about our passion...
...even though we must be mysterious (or supra-logical) in dressing up our passion as being beyond simple analysis...
...because there may be things we can't measure or that haven't been uncovered yet!
Out.
I looked for aor a
.... not seeing either, I'll assume you are seriously asking.
Of course I don't think you are lying. On the contrary, I am saying (agreeing) that some wires do actually affect the sound and for the others, we may hear differences that occur due to our own processing of the neural information. It isn't foolishness, stupidity, or insanity. It appears that there are factors that affect our hearing that are seemingly quite real and not necessarily aural.
Widget
My mistake.I looked for a
Of course I don't think you are lying. On the contrary, I am saying (agreeing) that some wires do actually affect the sound and for the others, we may hear differences that occur due to our own processing of the neural information. It isn't foolishness, stupidity, or insanity. It appears that there are factors that affect our hearing that are seemingly quite real and not necessarily aural.
Widget
Likewise.
Though you should recognize that I have no "beliefs" here as to wire sonics. Rather, I have "reasonable inferences based on the available valid data." There is a large difference between the two. I believe in leaving "beliefs" to things that actually matter but are not falsifiable, e.g. as "what is the meaning of life" or "is there a God?"
Audio wires are just not important enough to get all religious about. Admittedly, were I an audio dealer making 50-60 points on expensive wire, I might "get religion" fast.
So, the effect of suggestion on human perception is "irrelevant?" That's an interesting - and shocking - statement.
I notice you make no mention of blind listening, where the subjects don't know the nature of the DUT. Given what we know of human psychology, anything less than that (with levels matched, where appropriate, though with wires that's generally a non-issue) is simply unreliable.
So, what you are actually saying is "inserting new wires while knowing that new wires are in the system have led myself and others to believe that we hear dramatic differences in my system."
Sorry, there's no "fact" there to dispute. Only opinion. Opinion whose roots are well-established by
(a) actual physical characteristics of wires at audio frequencies in the relative current/voltage levels;
(b) the power of suggestion; and
(c) peer pressure
as far more likely a factor of (b) with some (c) in it than of (a).
Your notion that systems based on poorly-engineered loudspeakers with massive and glaring flaws are more sensitive to wires than properly-designed systems (constant midrange directivity, multiple pressure sources around the room in the modal region). I see no possible basis in reality for it, but it is nonetheless interesting.
I can't believe all of the posts in this thread. Is there really so few people in this thread that really doesen't undertand what we are talking about? I have read every post in this thread, with no comment, but as you can understand I can't remember all who write this. Ian has many good points regarding connections. WBT etc. He uses, as I have understood very nice cables the whole way. Widget do the same, the way I read it. Sure ther are other also that understand this.
BUT: There are a bunch of you out there that has no opinion, You just say tha " the old one is good enough" nor do you want to listen to what cables can do, nor are you interessted. If you are "stuck" in the wires from the 70's or 80t,s I don't blame you. If you are stuck with crossovers from that time, and you never have heard what a CC coupled network can do, I don't blame you.
But why not give the new tecnologi a chance? The speaker (a good one, like LBL) itself is about the same as it was many years ago. What has changed is the crossovers, and what is driving them, (CC networks) . Some improvement has been done with speakers, but the reality is that very few has made them better. They still push air that reach our erars.
So ... what is the point of my post?. Be open, try to listen to cables, upgrade your network, and I am sure you will agree. If not, God help you.
THAT is not an open minded comment!!
(I did drop the part about upgrading crossovers as few will argue with that - but it wasn't the point of the thread) ...
If you can't hear a difference in wires God help you ...
... just amazing!
Actually, the proper response is ...
if you can't hear a difference in wires, don't buy them.
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I believe it is the same we are saying. As I told all here, I don't buy anything before I have heard it. OK?
It took my a while to read all the linked material and watch this podcast. I did enjoy the podcst. Very thought provoking. Most of the written material seemed dated, and subjective. Not the measurements of course. No disputing all the wires measuring in a similar fashion, but wouldn't a $1000 solid state production preamp measure similarly to a $6500 solid state hand built preamp? I'm confident TOM1040s system could resolve the difference audibly. The whole system, from listening space to all the components must be up to an appropriate level. If TOM1040 was using the production preamp with his 1400 Arrays and couldn't hear the difference between the supplied (inexpensive) interconnects that tend to come packaged with electronics, and a variety of $100 per pair interconnects, I'd be suspicious of the preamp not being up to the task. It may sound "fine", but not have the ability to bring the level of detail, air, extension, imaging, soundstage, etc. that makes a system like his special.
Here's a link to the Stereophile review of the 1400.http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...ker/index.html I remember there was a thread started here when this first came out. Looking at the associated equipment page, the electronics seem appropriate. Mostly Bryston. Amps at $5-8000. Preamp at about $5000. Digital source/DAC about $5000. Sequerra tuner with mods, afraid to ask. Did the reviewer "over cable" this system? I don't know. If he had used 2 pairs of 16 gauge lamp cord to bi-wire with, would he have heard the difference? I think so. Especially after watching the podcast and hearing John's account of he and Michael Fremer getting involved in a listening test at a CES with members of the general public, and their ability to hear improvements/degradations to changes in a particular system the general public weren't perceiving nearly as consistantly. They (John/Michael) assumed the changes were component swap outs, but were wires being changed. Clearly, there must be something to learned experience. Watch the Video if you haven't already.
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