Balanced or unbalanced - that is the question

[Rolf]

First: It was not my intention to go off topic. It just seem appropriate at that time to say what I said.

Anyway, thanks for the answer. Much of it I know. PA, studio connections etc. I have tried Balanced from start to end, and Unbalanced from start to end. I prefer Unbalanced.

Your question is off topic but worthy of answers. In all my years of looking into this, I find the answer seems to be:

Balanced is to eliminate outside (non source signal) noise in a line. The current interest in wiring things balanced to increase sound quality - as in the high fidelity sense - is indeed worthless.

Balanced is traditionally the domain of sound reinforcement for concert and PA (public address - amplification of voice so a crowd can hear) systems. That is because one might have low level lines (= interconnects), speaker cables and power (AC) cables strung all over each other, and for long runs. Most home audio setups have none of these conditions present.

The one hifi situation where balanced might be necessary would be powering a dynamic - non electrostatic - headphone from two monoblock amplifiers.. Then you need to split the common ground used in almost all headphone cables. But it does not make sense there either, as it will need to be two wire into the monoblock.

Over at Head-Fi kids are crazy about balanced wiring. These are the same guys who think you need a $2000 DAC and believe they can hear jitter.

Even if balanced did have some sonic advantage besides elimination of outside noise sources, to work that would need to be balanced from the source - CD player, phono cartridge, server and DAC, whatever, all the way to the power amp. In sound reinforcement, transformers are sometimes used to create a balanced line for cable runs; a DJ turntable to a mixing board or amp is one possibility. Nothing to do with sound quality of the original music signal. Sound reinforcement usually does need a balanced source - look at the wires lying all over a concert stage at a club - so professional microphones have balanced outputs. The same for recording studios, where cables run or route all over the place, often in close proximity.

To those guys at Head-Fi: Good luck finding a moving coil phono cartridge with balanced output.

Edit: this is pretty esoteric, but I am told balanced can double the slew rate of an amplifier in certain setups.

[Ruediger]

http://www.douglas-self.com/ampins/b...d/balanced.htm

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/apps_wp.html

Enjoy! Ruediger

[louped garouv]

I have tried Balanced from start to end, and Unbalanced from start to end. I prefer Unbalanced.

I have pieces of equipment that have both output options...
and I've tried them both...

I tend to like the unbalanced outputs when i've been able to make a direct comparison...
(all the gear i've had an opportunity to check out this way have been either transformer or chip balanced though)

generally speaking, when running the same piece of gear balanced/unbalanced, the unbalanced outputs seem to be less constricted or veiled... YMMV

that being said, I am aware of a "DJ mixer" that has the capacity to accept fully differential phono inputs -- and has the circuits to match inside...

it's the OOMLLC "foundation precision instrument"

http://www.oomllc.com/foundation/index.htm

:drool:

(not many DJs i know can afford the unit)

[Rolf]

Exactly my experience to. All my equipment also have the choice between Balanced and Unbalanced.

I have pieces of equipment that have both output options...
and I've tried them both...

I tend to like the unbalanced outputs when i've been able to make a direct comparison...
(all the gear i've had an opportunity to check out this way have been either transformer or chip balanced though)

generally speaking, when running the same piece of gear balanced/unbalanced, the unbalanced outputs seem to be less constricted or veiled... YMMV

that being said, I am aware of a "DJ mixer" that has the capacity to accept fully differential phono inputs -- and has the circuits to match inside...

it's the OOMLLC "foundation precision instrument"

http://www.oomllc.com/foundation/index.htm

:drool:

(not many DJs i know can afford the unit)

[Mr. Widget]

I tend to like the unbalanced outputs when i've been able to make a direct comparison...
(all the gear i've had an opportunity to check out this way have been either transformer or chip balanced though)

Very important point!

generally speaking, when running the same piece of gear balanced/unbalanced, the unbalanced outputs seem to be less constricted or veiled... YMMV

Not surprising in light of the above statement. All of the best balanced gear either use very expensive transformers or better yet are fully balanced by design. In these cases, balanced should be a little better with a quieter noise floor and perhaps a bit less distortion.


Widget

[louped garouv]

Are Jensens considered very high end, or more pedestrian? (MI oriented)

[Ruediger]

Are Jensens considered very high end, or more pedestrian? (MI oriented)

They are just professional. Read the papers.

Ruediger

[cohearent]

Jensens are about the best transformers you can buy, and outperform active circuitry in many cases. They have better frequency response and lower distortion than most of the transformers out there. And yes, I have made the measurements and done the listening tests...

[jerry_rig]

The most compelling reason for using balanced runs in a home hifi application is when you want to place your turntable a good distance from your amps. I run balanced between my Pass Labs phono preamp and my Pass Labs preamp. The cables are nearly 30 feet in length. My experience is that single ended wiring of that length would run into serious capacitance issues and sound rather lifeless.

That said, I have seen ridiculously long lengths of high-end single ended cables for sale on Audiogon. I can't imagine what they were thinking.

[Mr. Widget]

I have seen ridiculous... high-end... cables for sale on Audiogon. I can't imagine what they were thinking.

Hey... I took out half the words and it is still true!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

Now, back on topic... there are two reasons to go balanced. One is as Jerry suggested, to run longer runs without picking up noise or rolling off the highs. To do this, any form of balanced gear will work. Transformer, solid state, or fully balanced circuit architecture. The other reason to run balanced is if you have fully balanced differential circuit electronics. In this case you not only lower your noise floor, but there is a reduction in distortion due to the cancellation inherent in differential circuits.


Widget

[Ducatista47]

Gosh, thanks Widget, for validating my original points. Perhaps from you they will be believed.

I jumped in (went off topic with a rant) because I am so tired of Head-Fi know nothings touting the sonic advantages of a three foot run of balanced architecture. And thanks for explaining the amplifier advantage. Could you possible elaborate on that? I don't think you mean push-pull vs single ended, but I would like to learn.

In home rigs, I believe that fully balanced - source to power amp - systems are pretty scarce.

Clark

[Allanvh5150]

One simple thing that should be remembered, if you have no problems using an unbalanced signal path, there is little point in changing to balanced. Most home gear only uses unbalanced and it performs perfectly fine in most situations.

Allan.

[Titanium Dome]

My entire Synthesis® runs on unbalanced cables, though they're very nice looking StraightWire cables that JBL supplies. The system has a great, low noise floor.

MY K2 system is balanced from the pre to the amps. The longest run is three feet. It's a significantly better sound than the unbalanced were if for no other reason than they took out a persistent, very low level 60 Hz hum. I know a few here mocked (in good humor I hope) my choice of ATI fully differential balanced amps for this task, but

[Eaulive]

I run balanced from the sound card (Lexicon Lambda) to my console to the driverack and to my Crown amps.
My system is noisy as hell

The amps I use are the worst ever spawned by Crown, even with the gain completely closed there's still a nasty buzz coming out of the B channel of those amps ( I have four)

Balanced is not a guarantee of good sound. It's a good practice for PA and long runs, in a home environment it's not necessary.

[Titanium Dome]

It's a good practice for PA and long runs, in a home environment it's not necessary.

If you would have written "in many" or even "in most" home environments it's not necessary, I could agree with you. But since you made such a sweeping and false generalization, I'm going to call you on it and write

Otherwise, have a nice day.