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Thread: Digital or analog crossover ?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I didn't go there because I thought it obvious...


    Widget
    Everything I buy has to have at least one LED, or I don't want it.

    If you remember that Pink Floyd disc set that had the red flashing LED in it, I almost cried when it finally died, and the CDs' sound seemed less "live." I bought a couple of blue LED headbands and put them on my K2s. This really makes them sound cool. I think there's something about blue light that interacts with the Be and Mg drivers' output that's just magical.
    Out.

  2. #17
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    LOL... until I read about the blue LEDs ... I can't stand them. They're unnatural.
    They make my eyes hurt. Could be the racks of computers I have to deal with
    regularly, with their damn blue projector bulb LEDs, have damaged my ability
    to appreciate them. Or I just don't like them. Did I mention I don't like blue LEDs?
    I really don't like them.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
    LOL... until I read about the blue LEDs ... I can't stand them. They're unnatural.
    They make my eyes hurt. Could be the racks of computers I have to deal with
    regularly, with their damn blue projector bulb LEDs, have damaged my ability
    to appreciate them. Or I just don't like them. Did I mention I don't like blue LEDs?
    I really don't like them.
    There's a scientific explanation for this. The human eye is very sensitive to blueish light but lacks detail resolution at this frequency. However it's less sensitive to redish light but the detail resolution is excellent, that's why you can read under a candlelight and could not under a weak neon light. That's also why the blue leds always seem to be out of focus and make you want to rub your eyes.

    Many years ago Europeans had yellow headlights on their cars, good detail resolution, less glare for the oncoming drivers, now those stupid xenon lights are a real PITA for the one who's not using them, and they look so bright but don't render the details and shadows like the good old halogen.
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  4. #19
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Well there you go. My fix is usually electrical tape.

    Attention: analog or digital crossover industrial designers...
    (as though they'd be reading here)
    please limit the use of blue LED indicators to a minimum, always
    using more of green if you must... red -and- blue is 'right out'.
    ... and a diffuse/translucent emitting surface really helps to tame those 'blues'

    (ok, so did I tie the thread back in?)

    Use the right tool for the job; if you have a choice, use the one you like.

  5. #20
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    I bought this HP computer monitor sight unseen at WalMart because I needed a monitor right now.

    It has a bright blue "Power" LED front and center. Like you need an indicator to tell if your monitor is on. Black tape.

    TiDome likes them thar blue LEDs so much because they often come embedded in the billet aluminum faceplates he's so fond of

    (And don't tell anyone, but with 7 amps, a preamp, a phono stage, and a 4 way crossover, I don't want no more damn blue LEDs. But I didn't buy the stuff because it had blue LEDs, or billet aluminum faceplates. Sometimes it boils down to

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    Because the more costly item has better build quality and durability?
    , plus it sounds good).

  6. #21
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Hi Widget, Dome...long time

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I am not sure there is a specific discussion on just this topic, but indirectly there have been numerous discussions about various digital and analog crossovers.

    I have used numerous inexpensive analog crossovers as well as the DEQX digital

    Widget
    Had to chime in on this....There is a huge difference between the Deqx you had and the current offering. They have done a great job in HDP-3 and continue to upgrade it all the time. As you know.....I like the product but am not fussy about the company. That being said, I would have no trouble suggesting someone purchase one. Marchand builds some great active crossovers in the 2-3k range.

    Nice to see you guys are alive and kicking...be well.

    Ken

  7. #22
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    I'm by no means an expert, but I think you have to remember that digital audio has limitations. The frequency response of the A/D and D/A converters could be a deciding factor. Most DSP's are 20Hz to 20kHz. Ask yourself is that enough? I've A/B'd my home system analog to digital and I must say I much prefer listening to the analog. Although, digital is very good at notching out an offending frequencies. I think the good analog stuff will have a wider response.

    I remember the great mixing console designer, Jim Gamble saying his consoles would go out to 75kHz and was looking to extend that out to 200kHz.

    Radley

  8. #23
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    BSS 366T Omnidirve Compact plus

    This BSS unit is 10Hz to 40kHz (+ or - 2.5dB). My hearing is 22Hz to 13kHz. I know I can feel frequencies below my hearing threshold, and I firmly believe that frequencies above my hearing threshold impact my overall listening experience, but 40kHz is plenty of room and is the outer limit of many speakers and beyond the limits of most.
    Out.

  9. #24
    Senior Señor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radley View Post
    I remember the great mixing console designer, Jim Gamble saying his consoles would go out to 75kHz and was looking to extend that out to 200kHz.
    Lucky enough to call Gamble a friend, I cannot critique your specific quote but conceptually you are spot on. It's all about "headroom" - both from a perspective of gain and frequency response. If either is limited too close to your working parameters there likely will be audible consequences.

    That said, the single biggest issue in this discussion is the AD/DA converters. The "good" ones are dammned expensive, and still may not meet the expectations of the audiophile. Me? While not an audiophile, when using best-of-class, I'm pretty pleased with the sound of those DSP's, and the benefits of their technology.

    That said, I have yet to deploy them in the home...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  10. #25
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    I must say I much prefer listening to the analogI think you answered your own question thereSomething else to weigh up is the high level of skill required to exactly match the active crossover be it digital or analogue existing passive network.Many active crossover users feel the analogue active network is not a good as the existing passive network.Overall the ear is very sensitivty to amplitude differences and if the analogue or digital active network does not exactly track the the voltage drive of the existing passive network it won't be optimal and you wont be entirely happy.Some factory systems like certain JBL models have published voltage drives and the correct set up for a JBL network. The 4343 , 4344 / 4345 and 4430/4435 are a case in point.Otherwise it can take months of adjustment assuming the active crossover allows for fine adjustment.If you are messing around with a diy system from scratch the same issue applies. Therefore you ask what it the benefit?Mostly the 1st crossover point from the woofer to the mid as the woofer and the mid will have better damping. But uness the active crossover is utterly transparent you may also detect other differences in the mid range and top end fidelity.One member replaced just about every part of an advanced analgue active crossover in the quest to improve the sound reproduction.If you are using the loudspeaker for so called hifi you will find this a a tedious and often confusing journey and quite often it is more cost effective and time efficient to go buy a better loudspeaker if that is what you are seeking.

  11. #26
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    Check setup

    I builded a compleet passive crossover for my setup and listened to it for a while, then just put the active crossovers I wanted to test in the signal path but with HUGE overlapping frequenties so they wouldn't interfear with the passive crossovers, just to hear how they alter the signal and then make a chooise. So far I havent heard a digital device that not makes my music artificial in the best case senario, worst case is Horid harshness in the mids, easy to spot on a 2"driver
    And I found so far that I havent been able to find ANY LR analog active crossover that not flattens my system, Butterworth RULES for me, 12 and 18dB. But I havent tried every crossover that there is in the world , so might be I was just unlucky with the devices I tried.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Bleeker View Post
    I builded a compleet passive crossover for my setup and listened to it for a while, then just put the active crossovers I wanted to test in the signal path but with HUGE overlapping frequenties so they wouldn't interfear with the passive crossovers, just to hear how they alter the signal and then make a chooise. So far I havent heard a digital device that not makes my music artificial in the best case senario, worst case is Horid harshness in the mids, easy to spot on a 2"driver
    And I found so far that I havent been able to find ANY LR analog active crossover that not flattens my system, Butterworth RULES for me, 12 and 18dB. But I havent tried every crossover that there is in the world , so might be I was just unlucky with the devices I tried.
    So, what are you saying then?

  13. #28
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    I think he's saying that he has yet to run into a digital device that is benign.

    I think he is also saying that he doesn't like the ubiquitous LR filters in analog active circuits, that he prefers Butterworth filters.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hans Bleeker View Post
    I builded a compleet passive crossover for my setup and listened to it for a while, then just put the active crossovers I wanted to test in the signal path but with HUGE overlapping frequenties so they wouldn't interfear with the passive crossovers, just to hear how they alter the signal and then make a chooise. So far I havent heard a digital device that not makes my music artificial in the best case senario, worst case is Horid harshness in the mids, easy to spot on a 2"driver
    That methodology seems fraught with potential problems, especially with the bias implied in the commentary.
    Out.

  15. #30
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    Possibly a useful point that warrants discussion is to ask why do you need to use an active crossover?

    This precludes the selection of digitial or analogue active crossover and may well provide the answer to this choice if required.

    For example What is the motive? Is the need perceived ie an active crossover must be better then the existing passive filter?

    In theory a pure active system is better as the driver is directly coupled to the amplifier.

    However, the correct implementation reuuires a lot of engineering and complexity and is often beyond the means of the user.

    Have a look at the more recent active small format JBL monitors

    Some people think that that can make the best diy loudspeaker by plug and play with an active crossover.
    Others want to improve the performance of an existing all passive system.

    If you like to experiment and have lots of time and can handle endless frustration and have a deep wallet then actives crossovers maybe for you.


    Assuming you want to improve an existing full passive system first get some assistance to assess where the most benefit may be if you decide to apply an active crossover.

    Then determine you budget.

    ie Do you want cleaner highs, tighter bass or a more dymanic sound?

    In the case of the former an upgrade of the existing capacitors in the passive filter may suffice.


    If the woofer is large then 12 inch and the crossover point if 300 hertz or below then there is a fair chance the bass response will improve.

    However, if you a a purist or an audiophile then be aware there are some trade offs in terms of overall sound quality and you may seek alternatives.

    The fact is running the audio signal through sn active filter process will have some effect on noise and distortion regardless of being digiital or analogue.

    Sometimes it is possible to bi wire the existing passive crossover with seperate amplifier for the highs and the lows to the low and high [pass passive filters.

    This precludes the use of active crossovers and offers the benefit of a dedicated amplifiers

    The other option is to buy a new or better amplifier period if you are looking for improved sound quality!

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