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Thread: JBL 2440 vs TAD4001

  1. #61
    Alex Lancaster
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    Smile

    I had seen them (in paper), but had no idea of the price; Who buys them?, forget the 2405īs, You can get a couple of complete 4430īs for that; They would look a lot better if they hid the 4 ugly screws.

  2. #62
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Well....

    I have never actually heard them, they are supposed to be good though, really good.

    The allen screws give it a kind of industrial look, I could live with it. Ill bet if you heard them, and loved them, so could you.

    I did say they were expensive. I had thought about getting them, and I have a freind who is TAD authorized, and still, they are just too darn expensive!

    Truthfully, I dont really think about them that much though, as JBL tweeters are really good, and have always satisfied me. I find one really nice thing about the price of the TAD tweeters, it makes buying six JBL 2405,s brand new almost painless!!!!!!!! . The real reason I dont fret much over these is the fact that JBL,s are terrific, I have heard them everywhere, I know what I can get out of them, and I know they work.

    The TAD, well, never heard them, dont know exactly what they sound like! I have six TAD-4002,s and dont love them, prefer the JBL 2441. So, its like that, for me, anyway!

  3. #63
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    That damn ET-703!

    Yeah, that is the UHF device I have my eye on. I have heard them and they are quite good. Of course one could easily make the argument that they are ridiculously expensive, but it would be difficult to make that statement after buying a pair of compression drivers and horns retailing for $9K. At that point what is another two?

    As far as the aesthetics... the screws look fine in person. The machined aluminum horn is so eye catching you really don't notice the extra little shiny bits.

    I need to rob a bank and then I will get a pair to try out with my system.

    Widget

  4. #64
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    They are good from what Im told!

    I have seen them, at the AES show, and I agree they look good.

    From what Im told, they have an even more delicate sound than the JBL 2405, which some tell me Im am nuts to put in my place over the 2404,s! But I can hear the difference, so I do it to please myself!

    The TAD price wouldnt be so bad to me If we were talking about two tweeters, but at six units, its just too costly.

    Of course, if they are too delicate sounding they might be too obscured, sonically, by everything else going on im my place! JBL has great cut through, and clarity, and maintains a sound that is distintcly audible as a JBL tweeter! Another reason I choose to remain JBL for this range of my system. I have heard ribbon tweeters that I thought were absolutely stunning sounding, very open, airy, very fast transients, but so delicate, but I know they would get completely lost in my application, and they are also sensitive to dirt and dust, something the Eldorado has its own brand of! Carbon Dust, we make our own!



    However, I could see the tonality of the TAD tweeters working very well with the TAD compression drivers you already have!

    Mr. Widget, please dont rob a bank! California is not too forgiving to bank robbers, and TAD tweeters are not worth what you will have to endure in a Federal Penitentiary!

    A little advice though, should you decide to do it anyway, and happen to get caught, whatever you do in prison , DO NOT BEND OVER FOR THE SOAP!

    Last edited by scott fitlin; 10-23-2004 at 07:31 PM.

  5. #65
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    Smile A Contrary Point of View

    Originally posted by scott fitlin
    The tweeter does give that airy sound the horn and comp driver just are not capable of!
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I. disagree !
    - Tweeters are the easy way out when it comes to achieving a balance between the respective MF - HF ranges of dynamics and finesse .

    - The considerably harder, but more sonically homogenous way, is through the selective use of capacitors as passive dynamic compressors . This is done in Mastering Studios all the time with MultiBand Dynamic Compressors .

    - Obviously: There is; Nothing easy or "mapped out" or "off the shelf" about this approach - but it is hugely rewarding and worth the effort .

    Originally posted by Mr Widget
    Yeah, I am afraid after experimenting with these TAD drivers that there is little hope of getting the very finest quality of high frequency reproduction without adding a UHF device if you are going to use a compression driver for the mids and highs.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    See my above comments for where I stand on this .

    <> Earl K

  6. #66
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Earl,

    How would "the selective use of capacitors as passive dynamic compressors" create a more effortless, delicate sound quality than using a White 4400 with a gentle +6dB bump to achieve a linear response to 20KHz?

    Widget

  7. #67
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    How would "the selective use of capacitors as passive dynamic compressors" create a more effortless, delicate sound quality than using a White 4400 with a gentle +6dB bump to achieve a linear response to 20KHz?
    - Any EQ has one or two types of caps ( filters ) that one is obligated to listen to , once those caps are put into the signal path. Every cap ( & its' dielectric type ) has it's own sonic signature that can be used for "Good or Evil".

    - Some caps are more complementary to certain signal ranges compared to other types.

    - I haven't ripped apart a 4400 to see or understand where its' sonic bias may lay .

    <> Earl K

  8. #68
    Tom Loizeaux
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    Remember, many people say there should not be a crossover in the vocal range. Most 2-way systems require a crossover in there somewhere.
    Hey, my 2-way Altec Valencias sound very good, but my JBL 4343s go deeper, have a smoother midrange, and go higher too. I think the secret of the 4343s is the 10" mid. The 15 handles the low end without needing to track the vocal material, and the compression driver doesn't need to cover the vocal material, but is left to add the clarity and top end, helped by the 2405 of course. I suspect fewer crossovers are a good thing, but the drivers need to be able to cover the required range without compromise.

    BTW, I count a subwoofer, a 15, a compression driver and a slot tweeter as approaching a 4-way system.

    Tom
    Last edited by Tom Loizeaux; 10-24-2004 at 05:56 PM.

  9. #69
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Wow what a thread!


    "From what Im told, they have an even more delicate sound than the JBL 2405, which some tell me Im am nuts to put in my place over the 2404,s! But I can hear the difference, so I do it to please myself!"

    Hello Scott before I did the 4344's I was trying different drivers as I was thinking about swapping the 2405 and using a 2404. I found the same thing. Not sure why but the 2405 sounded more delicate more detailed to me too??? Can't figure that one out unless it has to be with the 2405's focusing things a bit more???

    Hello Zilch

    "We need to explore ways to get more high frequency extension outta them, maybe, without adding a UHF driver.

    Mackie 1400i has an "Air" option for constant directivity horns. Been meaning to hook that up and see what happens. The limitation is in the 2425/6H, though, no? Even with boost, it's not gonna go ultra high?"

    There is only so much you can get out of them. Take a look at the distortion graphs on the 4430. At the high end you can see the numbers going up with frequency. If you looked at a 3/4 way monitor like a 4333 or 4343 that doesn't happen. Those 1" drivers just run out or steam and what is up there is not as clean as a dedicated driver. So you trade phase issues for linearity to use the 2405's.

    "As far as the aesthetics... the screws look fine in person. The machined aluminum horn is so eye catching you really don't notice the extra little shiny bits."



    Hey Widget

    Classic Audio Reproductions uses them. They sound nice and do look good in person. I would have to do a side by side to see just how much better they are though. That's some bucks!! All the TAD is!!!!

    http://www.classicaudiorepro.com/

    "Earl,

    How would "the selective use of capacitors as passive dynamic compressors" create a more effortless, delicate sound quality than using a White 4400 with a gentle +6dB bump to achieve a linear response to 20KHz?

    Widget"

    I am running charge coupled mylars with polpropylene bypasses on my 2344 for the compensation. The extension is not any more but the what's there is liquid sounding. Very smooth not harsh and good bite when there should be. It does improve things at least for that combo.

    Hello Tom

    "I think the secret of the 4343s is the 10" mid."

    I agree. In both system I use a 10" in the vocal and instrumental clarity is really excellent.

    Rob
    Last edited by Robh3606; 10-24-2004 at 09:39 AM.

  10. #70
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    My opinion...........

    Rob;

    Hello Scott before I did the 4344's I was trying different drivers as I was thinking about swapping the 2405 and using a 2404. I found the same thing. Not sure why but the 2405 sounded more delicate more detailed to me too??? Can't figure that one out unless it has to be with the 2405's focusing things a bit more???

    I have always thought the 2404,s plastic horn has something to do with things, and the 2405 is machined aluminum. I just know the 2405 will be a really good tweeter to take my full range stacks out to 20K!

    It also probably has as much to do with the geometry of the horns too.

    All I know is that the 2405 will also look as good as it sounds perched on my stacks!


  11. #71
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tom Loizeaux
    Remember, many people say there should not be a crossover in the vocal range. Most 2-way systems require a crossover in there somewhere.
    Hey, my 2-way Altec Valencias sound very good, but my JBL 4343s go deeper, have a smoother midrange, and go higher too. I think the secret of the 4343s is the 10" mid.
    That's certainly part of it. I think the reason the voice range is so important is that the human ear/listening/decoding evolved to pick up nuances in the voice that reveal another's intent. A lot of this information would be generated by various tensions in the body's sound making and shaping apparatus. The fundamental note may undergo slight changes in elevation, and the overtone combination would be altered. The critical area would go beyond the range of the voice fundamentals. Our listening is very sensitive to anamolies in this range.

    I think one reason the LSR 32 works so well is that the cone midrange runs from 250 hz to 2.2 khz. That parts out some of the voice fundamental region on the low end but includes some of the first and second voice range overtones on the high end.

    David

  12. #72
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Robh3606
    Those 1" drivers just run out or steam and what is up there is not as clean as a dedicated driver. So you trade phase issues for linearity to use the 2405's.
    I'm thinkin' a retro Be diaphragm, maybe, or another tweak that would extend the range upward.

    NOTE: Y'all what are swappin' out them 2404's for 2405's should be aware that there's only ONE certified environmentally conscious means available to responsibly dispose of them nasty plastic 2404's. Contact the Zilchster for the requisite packaging and shipping information....

    Last edited by Zilch; 10-24-2004 at 11:11 AM.

  13. #73
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Its funny, cause.....

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Robh3606
    Those 1" drivers just run out or steam and what is up there is not as clean as a dedicated driver. So you trade phase issues for linearity to use the 2405's.


    Last week, I got out one of our old tweeter devices! The Altec 808-8B, with a tangerine phase plug, mounted on a Community horn.

    This 1 inch always sounded good to me, and it still did, and does, but the thing I noticed, even though it was nice sounding, is it didnt have the high frequency snap of a dedicated tweeter! It went up, the extension was there, but no matter what I did, it just isnt a tweeter, its a 1in comp driver. The highs out of this thing sounded smooth, and open, so to speak, but it lacked the detail, and definition that a tweeter produces at frequencies over 10K. To be blunt, it sounded like a 1 inch, not a tweeter!

    So, after this experience, I decided the only way to improve my full range highs, is to replace the JBL 2404 with a BETTER JBL tweeter, the 2405! What a tweeter does, I like!

    Jus my 2 cents worth!

  14. #74
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Re: Its funny, cause.....

    Originally posted by scott fitlin
    quote:
    So, after this experience, I decided the only way to improve my full range highs, is to replace the JBL 2404 with a BETTER JBL tweeter, the 2405! What a tweeter does, I like!
    They be different, is all, the major difference being the dispersion characteristics:

    2404 is 100° H X 100° V from 3 kHz to 20 kHz.

    2405 is:

    140° H X 40° V at 10 kHz
    90° H X 35° V at 16 kHz
    65° H X 30° V at 20 kHz

    SO, it depends on if you're dancin' or meditatin' type listener, maybe.

    "Like" factor is the most important parameter in all of this, I've found....

  15. #75
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Its funny, cause.....

    Originally posted by Zilch
    They be different, is all, the major difference being the dispersion characteristics:

    2404 is 100° H X 100° V from 3 kHz to 20 kHz.

    2405 is:

    140° H X 40° V at 10 kHz
    90° H X 35° V at 16 kHz
    65° H X 30° V at 20 kHz

    SO, it depends on if you're dancin' or meditatin' type listener, maybe.

    "Like" factor is the most important parameter in all of this, I've found....
    The post your quoting me on is me describing the difference between an Altec 808-8B 1 inch compression driver, used as a tweeter vs a JBL tweeter, the 2404! They be VERY different from each other!

    As for the differences between the 2404 and the 2405, I think the horns on each make a considerable sonic difference, more than just dispersion characteristics.

    What one likes is the most important factor, though!


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