Fairly cheap, fairly straightforward, fairly clean, fairly neutral & fairly reliable has been my experience with them. Hardly the best, hardly the worst.Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
If I was working with a $500 budget for a pre, it wouldn't be the route I'd take, but that's just my experience with different brands.
I would like to know more too...
I own a Yamaha T-1 tuner it seems to work... I don't really listen to the radio much. Years ago I did a shoot out with a then new Yamaha A-1 Integrated amp (a gorgeous statement piece, Google it if you are not familiar). I used a Threshold Pre or an older Marantz Pre (I don't remember which was on deck at the time) and GAS Grandson 40wpc against the 70wpc Yamaha... the Yamaha sounded like an AM radio compared to the separates. It really got stomped.
More recently I have heard numerous Yamaha AVRs with their seemingly endless surround modes... they have all impressed me, but never positively.
So basically, while some will think I am dumping on Yamaha, I don't feel I am. What I am saying is that my experience with Yamaha 2-channel is limited. The experience that I have had hasn't fostered a desire to explore these devices, but like Dome, the number of members who seem enamored with them does make me curious. (OK, I admit it, I am dumping on their AVRs... I really have never met one that I liked.)
Widget
nice post Phil .....and I wish that your recommendation on the soundcraftsman preamp had been posted before I bought my 2 pre's ...not saying that I would have bought it , but it would have been another one with someone I know behind it...to check out.
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
With cars, I have to divide it between day to day long term needs and pie in the sky. I have happily settled on VW for the family cars (all three), TDI preferred.
So what is the car I would most like to be able to drive, even if only once? The 917, my candidate for the best racing car ever. Probably ignorant, but it is my favorite anyway. I watch Le Mans more frequently than any other DVD I have.
Guilty as charged. But when it comes to audio gear, it is all about the performance. I will never understand why listeners care so much about what gear looks like - or care at all, WAF excepted.
Clark
Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears
Since this is an associative forum that goes OT often (yes, guilty as charged) .... my son and I long ago played with a tin 917 model ..abt 10 incher..that wouldnt go off a table top...beautiful detailed, always loved the design (along with the GT40)
Went to a PCA awards dinner and sat next to Monte Shelton , the race driver ....he told of visiting a race outfit in the late 70's and noticing a bunch of boxes and body parts under a tarp (true basket case) ...it was a 917 ..they sold it to him for 10K ...he rebuilt it and sold it for 500K ...before it became valuable.
Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles
Form / Function or Function/Form ? Well thought out design should be evident from the exterior, but never superior to the internals...
Case in point , Emotiva gear = form over function and MSB function over form ! Levinson and Pass have the balance right ..
Rich
Agreed!
I love my Jetta TDI Wagon. It drives like a car you would want to drive, can carry as much as many of those silly SUV thingies, and still gets 45mpg on the highway.
I like pretty cars, pretty women, and pretty audio gear... that of course assumes the performance isn't compromised. I mean what's the point of having a pretty woman on your arm if you don't also enjoy being with her.
Widget
The car analogies are great for continuing a discussion on JBL past and present (which is a spillover from an unrelated thread), but they don't really move this discussion along, which is about preamps.Yes, it's true.
So let's give it another boost.
After getting the JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) and thinking they'd be a great stereo pair, I got to speak with the designer (name withheld to avoid debate), and was slightly surprised to hear him concur with the seller's (name withheld to avoid debate) opinion that a sub or subs would be a recommended addition. He (name withheld to avoid debate) gave me a couple of suggestions, and I ended up with the JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) pair to augment the (name withheld to avoid debate). The difference was subtle, but very satisfying.
Luckily, I have a (name withheld to avoid debate) pre/pro with a great analog section that has analog bass management, and it works with the (name withheld to avoid debate) and (name withheld to avoid debate) very, very well. Grumpy and a couple of AVS buddies helped to dial it in a bit, and I'm happy with it.
Subsequent to that, I listened to some JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) that I own. I'd enjoyed them for years despite a weak HF performance, but now felt there was some need for augmentation at the lower end as well. I'm not suggesting boomy or rumbling augmentation, just assistance to overcome the compromises required by the design.
Unfortunately my (name withheld to avoid debate) pre doesn't have anything other than stereo analog out: no separate bass management. I'm not interested in adding an external crossover and I don't have another pre/pro sitting around.
AND HERE WE ARE:
Are there good stereo pres on the used market or even in production today that have separate bass management and LF outputs? Would these fall into the category of "best value"?
Out.
...and more preamp talk. Today I was made aware of this site: http://stereolist.com/stereolist-cat...ifiers/active/
Most of the listed preamps are a bit more expensive than we were talking about, but there is an inexpensive Adcom and a couple of others. The site has quite a bit of interesting gear on it.
Widget
I am unaware of any sonically superior preamps with bass management. Sounds like you better get rid of those overly complicating JBL (name withheld to avoid debate) speakers.
FWIW: There may exist just the animal you are looking for, but I certainly never heard of it. When faced with this situation I have always used a pre with paralleled outputs, an external crossover, and separate amps. It does add clutter and complexity.
Widget
Group,
I thought I would share my latest update with everyone. For a while, I've been looking to add a dedicated 2 ch preamp to my system instead of my AV receiver (see original post), as when I questioned what the weak point in my system was, this came up the most often.
I didn't want to spend mega bucks on a preamp right now, just something decent used to notice if I could hear a difference. I came across a used Belles soloist 3 preamp in absolute mint conditon on my local craigslist. I got it for a great price, so I thought there was little risk as I could flip it on Audiogon or ebay for likely a small profit if I didn't like it. The reviews were good, and it met all of my criteria. Nothing spectacular, but I thought it fit the bill.
The wife and I just got done listening to the first few CD's. The difference was dramatic. I would never have believed it if I didn't hear it myself. The bottom end was much more powerful and way tighter. The mids and highs seemed much more pronounced and clear. There was just so much more to the music....I'm not sure how to describe it.....it sounded almost 3 dimensional. And it was incredibly clear. I know it was loud when we were listening, but it didn't seem loud.
Thanks to the group for sharing there thoughts and convincing me that a preamp would be a good expenditure.
Brett
Glad it worked out so well, Brett. Thought I would share my current preamp situation.
Two years ago I went a different way and landed a First Watt B1 buffer preamp. Realizing that the gain circuitry in preamps is counterproductive in this age of two volt output sources, Nelson Pass designed a box with left and right volume pots, two inputs and one output and a Jfet buffer to prevent impedance mismatches. Zero gain, simple circuit and distortion way below audibility despite having no feedback. Possibly the most transparent audio unit ever devised since wire.
I replaced a really excellent tube preamp with it and - hated it. Returned it and asked the dealer to let it ride for a future purchase. Forward two years of listening and ear retraining, and I had him send it again. I suspected - correctly - that I fell into the body of listeners who love our particular distortion we are used to hearing. Think output transformers or vinyl and you get the picture. My current speaker rig is pretty revealing and I was expecting little if any audible improvement, having long since progressed to a solid state preamp solution. I was wrong. Not night and day, but it was like eliminating an amplifier alltogether, which of course is exactly what it does.
My point? If flat response and neutrality is your thing and you like the way your source and speakers sound (no need for tone controls), the best preamp may be no preamp. The B1 is pricey at $998 - used to be $898 - but is a breeze to DIY. It can be perf boarded and uses a wall wart for a power supply.
Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears
Thanks for the post. I didn't know about the DIY kit. If I need another one I'll just build it. It is the ideal preamp because it has no sound signature at all and no audible distortion. If your speakers are efficient, all mine are, a preamp with gain is counterproductive.
Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears
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